Winn Darden:
I am Winn Darden, Business Manager for Lumiflon Fluoropolymer Resins for North America. Welcome to our new podcast series called In the Mix, Choosing the Right Coating Solution, where we'll be discussing with industry experts what influences their decision-making processes when it comes to coatings. We'll delve into how experts develop their strategic planning approach to current structural and future market demands. In this episode, we'll talk with Brian Cheshire, Director of Sales for Water and Wastewater for Tnemec and Kurt Fuller, Chief Operating Officer and Vice President of Phoenix Fabricators and Erectors. Tnemec is a fluoropolymer coating manufacturer and Phoenix Fabricators builds water tanks and uses Tnemec's coating on those water tanks. Welcome to the podcast, guys.

Brian Cheshire
Thank you so much, Winn.

Kurt T. Fuller
Thanks, Winn.

Winn Darden
Appreciate it. Let me start with Brian. Brian, why don't you give me an introduction on your professional background and your current role at Tnemec.

Brian Cheshire
Yes, sure thing Winn so believe it or not this marks 22 years this year working in the coatings industry and. I tell you I remember just like it was yesterday I was the newbie and somehow I looked down and looked up and now I'm one of the old guys in the room so not not quite sure how that happened but regardless of that here I am. But I've spent my whole career working with coatings. I've worked with several large national coating manufacturers, have also worked extensively with some key industry associations and have done a lot of, you know, a lot of committee work. One of those being AMPP, which was formerly NACE and SSBC. I'm currently the chair of the standards committee for water wastewater, SC18. Also deal a lot with them, other national positions, and also work with them regionally. Me and Kurt are both members actually of the Steel Tank Institute and Steel Plate Fabricators Association. We're involved in committees there. Naturally, the fact that Phoenix builds water tanks and the fact that Tenemic deals with coatings for water tanks, that's a very key industry organization for really both Tnemec and Phoenix.
The American Water Works Association, who just had a few months back had their annual conference of which Kurt and I were both in attendance, but we're members of key committees there. A few of the standards we'll talk about today actually are developed by that organization, D102 being, I guess, the main one we'll talk about today. But as far as kind of going back to what I currently do, so currently the director of sales for the water and wastewater markets at Tenement Company. And so in this role, basically I oversee all of our company's selling efforts within these key markets. And when we say water, wastewater, we're talking water treatment, wastewater treatment, as well as water tanks. So as you know, really all throughout the water and wastewater infrastructure, there's a need for corrosion protection. And so naturally that's where Tnemec comes in there. But just kind of backing up for a minute, I know you've had Tnemec Company on this podcast before, but just wanted to quickly state, you know, Tnemec's a leading manufacturer of high -performance coatings. We've been around since 1921. And of that history, I would say, A good chunk of that has been serving the water and wastewater markets with still water storage tanks really being a key component of.

Winn Darden
Okay, good. Kurt, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and your company?

Kurt T. Fuller
Sure, so as Brian alluded to Phoenix fabricators and erectors our primary product line is elevated water storage tanks We're one of five major competitors in this market and one of two competitors that build each size and style of elevated take So by trade and education, I'm an engineer Coming up on my 18th year anniversary with Phoenix. I began as a design engineer in the engineering department kind of worked my way up to the VP of Engineering. And in about 2014, got heavily involved on the operations side and was promoted to the VP of Operations and now eventually to the CEO and Executive VP role that I currently hold.

Winn Darden
That's great. How long has Phoenix been in business?

Kurt T. Fuller 
So Phoenix was established in 1986. A group of gentlemen bought the precursor company, Universal Tank and Ironworks out of bankruptcy in 1986. So the name Phoenix arises as a business rising from new life or to new life from the ashes. The founders of Phoenix in 1986 were with the business through as late as 2017. There were a couple of retirements prior to that. But since 1986, Phoenix has been in business. In 2006, we acquired a competitor, Pittsburgh Tank and Tower Elevated Division. And that allowed us to get into a market for the composite elevated tanks, as well as the tank modification market. So we are one of the turnkey providers offering engineering design, fabrication, foundation, erection, and coatings, a turnkey contractor. And it is our philosophy to provide the highest quality, elevated water storage tank in the industry in the safest and most efficient manner.

Winn Darden
Kurt, can you give me a brief summary of the different type of water tanks that you build in rehab?

Kurt T. Fuller 
Sure. So on the elevated side, there are four predominant styles of elevated tanks. The first is called the multi -column tank. And this is the kind of picturesque tank that most people, you know, if you see pictures from the 40s, 50s and 60s, this was the predominant style of tank in that era. Another type of tank is the pedestal, single pedestal type tank and this kind of came into the market in the late 70s and most people refer to this style as kind of the golf ball on a tee. So that's becoming more prominent. Both of those styles are all steel tanks. Kind of a third steel tank style is what we refer to as the fluted column. This is a very large diameter fluted pedestal with the elevated tank on top of it. So those were common, again, probably in the 80s, more so than now or prior. So it's a...I don't know, Brian, do you have anything to chime in on the fluted column there? That's about all I've got.

Brian Cheshire 
I would say, Kurt, one advantage we really see out of those is just that you can get those in very, very large capacities. So I know when that design came out, I mean, it really kind of upped the storage capabilities of elevated tanks when those were first introduced. And I would say for the listener that may be trying to visualize that one, Another term you hear used is hydro pillar here and refer to that. But think of these as, like Kurt said, they're 100 % steel. So the pedestal was steel as well as the actual tank itself. But on the pedestal, it actually is more or less kind of like corrugated metal. So you have, you know, what it looks like you're, think of like a Roman column, basically. But it's all made of steel.

Winn Darden
Okay.


Kurt T. Fuller 
And then the final style of tank on the elevated market is what's called the composite elevated. And this kind of came to market in the United States in the mid 80s. And this style has the concrete pedestal with the architectural pattern. And then they steal water bearing tank on top of that. So as Brian alluded to on the fluted column, the goal with bringing this style to market is to reduce life cycle costs in addition to having the much larger capacity just from the structural design standpoint.

Winn Darden 
Okay. Interesting. Brian, how about, we know you guys are using a lot of fluoropolymer coatings on water tanks. How did that start to happen? What's been the progression of these exterior coatings on water tanks over the years?

Brian Cheshire 
So one way to summarize it, you can throw out the old Jerry Garcia quote, you know, what a long, strange trip it's been. It's been quite the roller coaster ride, quite the progression, I guess, since you really started seeing water tanks getting coated. And when that dates back really to the 60s and 70s, Alcat coatings were used primarily. And so for the listener who may not be familiar with that term, Basically, you know, Alcat, think of it as like a traditional oil -based coating that I'm sure many of you have probably used at some point in your life. But these resins actually get their name, the term Alcat comes from the fact that basically they're created by reacting an oil with an acid and an alcohol, hence the term Alcat there. So the beauty of these are they're single component. So they're easy to apply. The drawback though is the fact that you're talking probably a life cycle of five years with these. They tend to lose their color and gloss very quickly. And so, you know, when these were being used, they were great at the time, they were durable, but you really couldn't use bold colors and you really had to plan your repaints accordingly because these weren't going to last that long. And so, Fast forward a little bit to the late 1970s, aliphatic polyurethanes started being used on water tank exteriors. And so these were a huge improvement at the time over those Alka coatings. Really when you look at it from a standpoint of color and gloss performance. And so aliphatic polyurethanes, these are two component materials, but they're really known for their UV stability and their good weather ability. And then these are generally formed by reacting and alcohol with an isocyanate. Just in generic terms there. But once again, you know, when these came around, they really revolutionized the water tank market because now you were able to kind of step up from that algae coating that gave you that five year service life. And then now you had a top coat that can last 10 plus years. And because you did have that increased color and gloss performance there and that increased or better weather ability. And so fast forward again, I guess, to the 1990s. You know, the polyurethane performance was good, but people started seeing some kind of degradation there. And so they started thinking, well, hey, what if we add an additional clear coat on top of that? Maybe this can increase that life cycle even more. Maybe now we can get 15 to 20 years instead of that 10 to 12 or 10 to 15. As far as performance goes, the polyurethane with the clear coat did okay. The challenge was application. What you ended up with was a lot of skippers, a lot of holidays, because let's face it, the way water tanks are painted, it can be difficult sometimes to see where you've missed. It's much easier to be able to detect a holiday or detect a skipper if you're dealing with a pigmented coat. When you're dealing with a clear coat, it's much, much easier to possibly miss stuff or have holidays. And so that really became the challenge with those clear coats. And so that really led us to kind of where we are today with four bombers.

Winn Darden 
So you're looking for better durability and something that's going to be able to provide more than 15, 20, 30 years with the fluoropolymers without having to repaint.

Brian Cheshire 
100 % and let's face it. I mean anytime an owner can extend that repaint cycle I mean that that from a sustainability standpoint, I mean that that's So valuable to an owner and so that that's really you know, it kind of went for Palmer started entering the tank mark And so as I was going to say that that was really around the year 2000 when we started seeing four bombers being used in the tank market. And when you could you can better tell me this, but four bombers had been around since the 1980s at that point. Is that correct?

Winn Darden
Yeah, correct. The Lumiflon products have been around since the early 1980s. And they started making inroads over here probably in the 90s was probably what they do. They were developed in Japan, of course. So the market in Japan developed before the market over here. And in the last few years, what we've kind of seen is a greater emphasis on life cycle costs and a deeper understanding, I think, of the owners of structures as to how they incur their costs on these different projects. When you're painting, for example, a bridge, you know, it turns out, and I think the same thing may apply to some extent with a water tank, the actual cost of the coating is very small compared to the other aspects of it, of cleaning and staging and all the other expenses you incur when you repaint a large structure like that. And so I think that when you look at that life cycle cost and you look at the coating contribution to it, it's relatively small when you compare it to, like you said, with the Alkids every five years. Imagine incurring those labor costs every five years instead of every 25 years and you get an idea of how important the life cycle can be on that.

Brian Cheshire 
And Winn that's a great point, we've kind of determined through the years at Tnemec Company, just through real life case studies and from talking to fabricators like Curt and talking to applicators, the material cost of a project, it ranges anywhere from six to 10 % on average. I mean, what you're really buying is labor. And so when you really look at it, from a cost standpoint, from an initial upfront cost standpoint, it's really negligible. You really have to look at it in terms of total life cycle costs and total service life. And I tell you, when we first started selling floor bombers into the tank market, it was the year 2000. And as you alluded to, floor bombers had been around for quite some time. We were kind of watching what was happening in Japan. It was being used very extensively in the bridge market. We were also seeing it start to be used in the architectural market quite a bit. And so I know when when Teneum first started selling for bombers into the water tank market in 2000, you know, it seemed kind of far fetched because here we were, you know, proposing an industrial coating that would maybe be in that 350 to $400 a gallon range. And so There was some shock and awe at first, I guess, but really it started a paradigm shift. We immediately started seeing some of the benefits of using fluoropolymers in the water tank market. Now we have the ability to use brighter colors, especially on these logos, without the fear of them fading so quickly. Previous, especially with alkyds, but even with polyurethanes when you introduce bold colors in the logos, I mean, you almost expect them to fade within five years. And so now with this more color, color fast, more color stable resin system being able to be used, it really opened up the playbook and allowed people to really start going crazy with their designs. And I know we'll, we'll talk briefly about the tank of the year contest here in a little bit, but that, you know, basically the use of four bombers really enabled, Things like you see in that tank of the year contest now, some of these very bold designs and now you see a water tower. It is more of a billboard for a town and it's really fun to watch. I guess the ingenuity and the creativity that goes into it. But you get that, as you mentioned, you get that longer coloring, color retention, gloss retention, but you get really good corrosion resistance of these top coats as well.

Winn Darden
Yeah. Yeah.

Winn Darden
That's right, exactly.

Brian Cheshire
And like you said, I mean, it's that repaint cycle is now able to be extended. And the awesome thing is when, you know, you know, here we are going on, I guess, 24 years of really using these products in the water tank market. And we're seeing some tanks out there now that we're thinking will go 30 plus years based based on current inspections. And let me add current third party inspections. So we have objective coating inspectors coming in, looking at some of these older tanks and telling us, like, hey, you know, it's holding up well to this point and we project you're going to get another 10 years out of this.

Winn Darden
That's great. Really useful for the customer. Kurt, how about Phoenix Tank's experience with the fluoropolymers? Can you give me a background on that and what you guys are doing with it?

Kurt T. Fuller
Sure, sure. So Phoenix is unique in that we often utilize our own field painting crews when possible. So our crews are well versed in many of the different coating applications, you know, such as the Zinc-rich primers, epoxies, polyurethanes, and the fluoropolymers. So from a warranty and a life cycle standpoint, we have found that the fluoropolymers provide greater longevity than the other exterior top coats. So inherently because of this, Phoenix often tries to upsell to a fluoropolymer because it often means less issues and less callbacks for us. And from an aesthetic standpoint, the finish coats, including the logos, retain their color and gloss much longer than the other finish coats, including the polyurethanes.

Winn Darden
So really better for the customer in the long run when you're looking at it.

Kurt T. Fuller 
Yes, without a doubt.

Winn Darden
Okay.

Winn Darden
Brian, there's a number of companies that are selling coatings into the water tank market. So how does Tnemec sell performance to the asset owner? And also talking about selling at a higher price than maybe some of the competitors out there in the market, and yet still doing very well in the market with the number of projects that you win and then get the application on.

Brian Cheshire 
Yeah, when so you know it really is a different way of selling, I would really say it's more value selling. You know, anytime you start start looking at initial upfront costs and you start getting into that battle, it becomes a race to the bottom and ultimately the owner is the one that pays the penalty for that. And one thing we've done as a company and obviously we've, coached ourselves for us to really look at the totality of these projects. We want to think about, hey, we want to sell this coating system when this tank is built, but we want to be there, be a resource for this owner and be able to, when they come up against different repaint cycles, we want to be able to come back and be able to assist that owner throughout the life of that tank. And the beauty is, I mean, if you look at AWWA M42 manual, There's actually a quote in that that the service life of a still water storage tank is indefinite if properly maintained. And so coating system selection is very important for that. And you really have to look at it not from an initial CAPEX standpoint, but really more from that total life cycle standpoint. And...
When you start pulling back the layers and really start looking at it from an asset management standpoint, you really need, as an owner, when you're looking at a coating system, you'd be remiss if you're not looking at that system that provides that longest service life, that lowest life cycle cost. And when you couple those together, just about every time, you're going to end up with that most sustainable solution. And we talked earlier about the total cost of a job, total cost of a coating project. We've estimated that the material cost is 6 % to 10 % of the project, especially on a new tank when we start talking about the coating system. The bulk of it's really going to be on your labor and then also in your access, your rigging, containment, DH if you need it.

Brian Cheshire 
Things like that are really going to drive the cost of that project up. And so from a sustainability standpoint and from a cost standpoint, the owner is much better off if they can spend a little more money upfront to be able to extend that repaint cycle out further. And let's just say, you know, we talked a minute ago, Wynn, about the service life projections that we're seeing. You know, a standard zinc epoxy polyurethane exterior system. You know, on average, you're going to get 12 to 15 years versus if you start looking at, you know, going, going to AWB AD one or two outside coating system number four, which is a zinc aliphatic polyurethane for a polymer system. We're seeing, you know, 20 to 30 year service life projections out of those. And so consider that if you're an owner, I can basically double my service life. So there's less invasion for the community. There's less, well, I mean, let's just say this tank is in the middle of a neighborhood. So now, you know, every time I have to go and re -coat this tank, you know, depending on the parameters of the job, you know, I'm going to have to probably, you know, do blasting operations. I may have to do containment. It's going to be a nuisance to the community. So from a sustainability standpoint, if I can double that repaint cycle, I mean, it's so much more valuable for me. And then the other benefit on top of that when you start looking at the recodability of four bombers, you know, we're starting now to come up on the first repaint cycle on some of our first four bomber jobs. And basically our guidance is that obviously you want to treat any kind of existing corrosion if there is any. Typically a pressure wash, And then coming back with another coat of fluoropolymer, we've deemed to be acceptable, given the proper parameters there. Compared to other systems where you may have to come back and do a full blast, do a full intermediate coat and then come back and build your system on top of it.

Winn Darden
Right.

Winn Darden
Right, right. Okay. Kurt, I wanted to back up a minute on the application of the fluoropolymer coatings. How does the application of the fluoropolymer compare with that of, say, a polyurethane? Is, you know, the equipment that you use, do you need special equipment? Do you have to take, you know, any special precautions with the fluoropolymer that you might not have to take with another coating type?

Kurt T. Fuller 
So Brian, feel free to chime in here if you wish there. There's really no special equipment required. Our crews, like I say, we run our own internal crews for the most part. So all of the equipment we're equipped with is we're perfectly capable of doing the floral versus any other exterior coating system.

Winn Darden
Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Brian Cheshire
And the beauty is, you know, what you alluded to Kurt is there's really not a, not a steep learning curve or not really a big difference in application of a four a polymer versus a polyurethane. And, I mean, and if the listeners don't realize on a lot of, pretty much all water tanks, the finished coat is going to be rolled in a lot of cases. And so, you know, the application properties and the, the ability of four polymer to be rolled. I mean, it's very user friendly. You know, honestly, I mean, you talked earlier, Kurt, about the fact that you guys have standardized on it. I mean, it's, I know from a manufacturer standpoint and from supporting you guys, I mean, we don't hear of many issues from the field when it comes to the application. And from your standpoint, I think one of the reasons you standardize on the four -pointer top code is you tend to get less callbacks on that long -term.

Kurt T. Fuller
correct on that.

Winn Darden
Yeah, and I think that's also better for the customer as well, because you don't have to train the Phoenix tank on special application equipment or more expensive application equipment. And the surface preparation is going to be the same as the other coating systems. So it really fits in well. The benefit is all there. Your labor costs are not going higher because you or your...
application costs are not necessarily increasing because of the use of the fluoropolymer. There's only that small difference in the cost of the coating that's really going into the project. Kurt, are you guys offering warranties on the coatings that you apply and the tanks that you assemble and apply?

Kurt T. Fuller 
That's a contractual requirement that varies by job, but in general, yes, there is a warranty associated with each new tank project. And then obviously on the coating side in particular, you know, that is backed by the manufacturer's warranty as well, which Tnemec has been great to work with on that.

Winn Darden
Right. Okay. So the owners, if anything does go wrong, they're gonna be covered for a lot of it. Okay. Kurt, we had talked about, not Kurt, Brian, here I am. It's one of those days. That may not be edited out. That might be something I leave in there. Brian.

Kurt T. Fuller 
Yes.

Winn Darden
You had talked about some of the standards and specifications like the AWWA D102. How do these deal with the fluoropolymers, these different standards like this? Do they require a certain coating to be used or is there a flexibility for the owners? And how do the fluoropolymers fit into the different standards that are out there?

Brian Cheshire 
Yeah, that's a great question, Winn. So for an asset owner, when you're going to basically decide what type of coating system you're going to use on your tank, there are some good resources for you out there that will give you really a good starting point just to give you an idea of some of the different types of systems that are available to you. AWWAD102, which is named Coating Stillwater Storage Tanks, it's is a great resource for that. I would say it's probably one of the best known standards out there as it relates to coating a still water storage tank. Some things to understand about it. Number one, it's a minimum standard. So it's going to just lay out generic systems and it's going to lay out minimum requirements. And so once again, that's just a good reference or just a good starting point. This standard is developed by industry professionals. It's a consensus standard. It's developed by manufacturers, it's developed by tank owners, consultants, engineers, and so on. And this is typically every three to four years, you'll see a new version of this. But if you look at the standard, it actually breaks out different generic coating system types. It breaks them out by inside coating system and then outside coating system. And so kind of going back to your question there when asking how four polymers fit into that. So if you look at the 102 outside coating systems, they have seven generic systems. Outside coating system number four is a zinc rich primer, aliphatic polyurethane intermediate coat, and then a four polymer top coat. And so kind of the way that that system is laid out. The Zinc-rich primer is going to give you that galvanic protection. And we won't necessarily get into the mechanics of that. A lot of benefits to using a Zinkrich primer on a still water storage tank, both new and rehack. But typically the system's comprised of that Zinkrich primer. And then we have an aliphatic polyurethane intermediate coat. So reflecting back to my conversation earlier with you about...the different coating types that have been used on water tanks through the years. If you remember aliphatic polyurethanes, where were those next progression up from an alkyd as far as color and gloss protection. And so for this system, we like to use this aliphatic polyurethane intermediate just in the case that let's say you're for a polymer finish coat for this OCS4. let's just say there's some kind of damage or some kind of holiday or breach in that top coat, you now still have some color and gloss protection underneath that. So that's really why we go aliphatic polyurethane intermediate versus an epoxy. So in summary, that OCS4 is a zinc primer and aliphatic polyurethane intermediate and then a fluoropolymer top coat. And...If you look at some others, a few other industry guides out there that kind of give you a good idea of comparison between systems, one of which is it's an AMP paper that gets updated at a conference every year, but it's called the expected service life and cost considerations for maintenance and new construction protective coating work. And what this paper aims to do, it's a...basically they go and poll different people in the industry and get opinions from different manufacturers, different owners, different engineers. And all these opinions are aggregated and then kind of averaged out. But what this paper aims to do is basically tries to give you a rough idea of the projected service life of different systems. And so they actually go through and rank a lot of these D102 outside coating systems. And one of the things, one of the good takeaways from that win is OCS4, which involves that four -polymer top coat, that is listed as one of the top service life systems. And once again, this is, you know, owners, manufacturers, engineers, this is all pulled from their opinions and their observations. So it's fairly widely known and widely stated that systems utilizing fluoropolymer top coats are going to give you a longer service life.

Winn Darden
For my education, Kurt, do you guys do any shop application of the fluoropolymers or is it all field applied?

Kurt T. Fuller 
On the fluoropolymer that's entirely field applied, the only shop coatings application are the zinc rich primers that Brian had referred to earlier.

Winn Darden
Okay.

Winn Darden
Okay, all right, but if you were to, if you were fabricating a new water tank, would you put that zinc primer on in the shop and then take the components out and then coat them with the fluoropolymer?

Kurt T. Fuller 
Yes, that's how our process works with the zinc rich.

Winn Darden
Okay, all right. So not only for rehab of existing water tanks, but also it's being used for new water tanks that are just being fabricated. Okay. Let me see.

Kurt T. Fuller 
Correct.

Winn Darden
Brian and Kurt, how about some case histories? Talk about any memorable projects that you might have had with the fluoropolymers.

Brian Cheshire 
And Kurt, definitely chime in on some of the details of this, but one that's fresh on my mind that we worked with you guys on was the Pleasant Prairie, Wisconsin tank, otherwise known as the Haribo tank. And if the listeners are familiar with Haribo, yes, that's the gummy bear company. So they have a facility up in Wisconsin. It's part of a corporate business park that's been developed is the Prairie Highlands Corporate Park. And as part of that development, they had to, or they had, you know, new water requirements. And so Phoenix actually built a 750 ,000 gallon pedestal tank for them. And then if I'm not mistaken, Kurt, you know, you guys obviously fabricated that in the shop and then your field crews actually applied the initial coats on this before the logos were applied.

Kurt T. Fuller 
Yes, that is correct. We did all of the field coatings until it was time for the logo in which we brought in kind of an industry icon, the Eric Hinn, to do the murals with the Haribo and gummy bear artwork.

Brian Cheshire 
Yes, so Eric Hinn, if the listeners aren't familiar with him, if you Google Eric Hinn murals, there's an extensive amount of work he's done. And then he actually standardizes on fluoropolymer for his artwork, just because of the amount of work that goes into his design. He loves the application properties of it, but more importantly, he loves the color and gloss retention of those materials, given the amount of work in the design that he puts in. But yeah, Eric was brought in to actually do the design on this tank and overall the system, just kind of backing up a moment, the exterior coating system that was utilized on this tank was a Zinc-rich primer, actually an epoxy base coat over the Zinc-rich primer to add additional corrosion protection, then a polyurethane intermediate coat. And then a four polymer was used for the finish code and the logos. And all in all, this project utilized, it was roughly 130 gallons of four polymer. You had two main colors, which were a blue and a light gray, and then pretty staggering 18 colors were used for the logo. And if you Google this tank, it's very recognizable, very easy to find, but it's the Haribo tank in Pleasant Prairie, Wisconsin that...To give you a visual basically, the stem of this pedestal tank actually has gummy bears all over it. All the different color gummy bears, all the different flavors that you're accustomed to eating as a child and probably as an adult too if you're like me. But you've got reds, greens, yellows, oranges, a lot of bold colors on this tank. And the bowl of this tank is actually a pretty bright blue. And so if you looked at the other coating technologies for this, I would venture to say this would probably, this tank would probably look completely different in five years and would be very tired looking and colors would be much less vibrant. So it goes back again to the advantages of using these four polymers, the fact that you can now open up the entire playbook per se, the entire color palette. and it leads to really cool designs like this one. So for the listener, I encourage you to go look this up and it's a very impressive looking tank. And I can tell you from looking at drone footage up close, it's even more impressive in person. And Kurt, I believe you've even been to the site, so you can probably attest to some of that as well.

Kurt T. Fuller
Yes, it is a very impressive and you know as he started doing the logo work it drew a lot of local media attention. We received calls and articles so it was a very high profile project for the location in which it's at. The Haribo factory is actually part of the corporate business park that Brian had referred to there.

Winn Darden
And that's right off the interstate there.

Kurt T. Fuller
Yes, it is.

Winn Darden
So very visible to people going by. I've been that way many times over the years. So the last thing, Brian, can we talk about the tank of the year contest that you guys have? I know you've been doing this for, gosh, probably at least 10 years, but talk about that and the use of fluoropolymers and how that's evolved over time.

Brian Cheshire 
Yeah, it's a thing when I tell you the use of four bombers is really what's highlighted this contest and really spurred us to create this. And, and believe it or not, we are coming up, in two years, it will be the 20th year of this contest, which is mind blowing. It actually started all the way back in 2006. And what we were seeing is because you had applicators and designers that now could utilize a color -fast material, you started seeing some really interesting designs. And so when this contest was first created, it was really created as a way to highlight some of the work that we saw our customers doing, and that they were enabled to do because of the performance of these four polymers. And I tell you, went over time, this contest has really evolved. Kurt talked about the media attention that the Haribo tank got. I can tell you last year, the amount of media outlets and other people that got involved with this contest, I mean, was absolutely mind blowing. But the way this contest works, if you're not familiar with it, it's like I said, started in 2006, but basically any tank that's been done in the last few years, the last two years, the tanks that have been coated with Teneum products can be entered into this. Typically, we ask that it be a tank that was done with a four -polymer finish coat. But new construction tanks, renovation projects can be entered into the contest. Really all potable water tank styles are eligible. All that we ask is that you submit a high -quality photo, typically a JPEG or a PNG, of the completed tank. But if you just simply Google Tnemec Tank of the Year, it'll take you to the site. But I did want to point out, you've got some important dates coming up. So all the nominations will actually be due Friday, September 27th, 2024. And then once all the submissions are in, we then have a People's Choice voting block. And so the general public can go in and vote for their favorite tank. And there's it. At the end of all this, which this year all the voting will close on Friday, October 18th. But at the end of all this, a People's Choice tank is awarded and then a group of Teneumic water tank enthusiasts get together and we select 11 other finalists. Really a myriad of different factors we consider there. But ultimately we end up with a People's Choice and we end up with 11 other finalists. And then we select an overall tank of the year winner. The big thing and one of the most coveted things in the coatings industry has become the tank of the year calendar. And so these 12 tanks end up being a feature in each month of the calendar. And then winners end up getting plaques. But I tell you, it's really become just the notoriety of being able to say you're a tank of the year winner. There's a lot of excitement behind it. But once again, kind of going back to the fact of WAN is the fact that we have these high performing, you know, very good gloss retention and color retention materials. That allows us to be able to do stuff like this and to be able to highlight the artistic capabilities of our customers.

Winn Darden
Yeah, it's a great program. I've actually sent information on Tank of the Year to my colleagues in Japan and several of them, I think, may be on the mailing list for calendars as well. So if they're not, I'll put them on it. Well, like I say, it really is a wonderful program because it brings, I think it really shows people the type of thing that you can do with the...

Brian Cheshire
I could believe it. We send them all over the world.

Winn Darden
with the fluoropolymer materials, especially with them. And, you know, really give some notice and notoriety to the, to the Tnemec and Phoenix fabricator companies. It looks like, yeah, go ahead, Brian.

Brian Cheshire 
Well, and again, I just like to add in and you touched on it there. We couldn't do programs like this without applicators, without good fabricator partners. You know, people like Phoenix. And so I wanted to highlight that again, you know, the work that Phoenix fabricators does and many of our customers do utilizing these high performing products.

Winn Darden
Correct. Yep.

Winn Darden
Yeah, I sold coatings for a while in my career. And the one thing you can be sure of is you would get the call if there was a problem with the coating, as the manufacturer would get the call. But inevitably it was the application that was the problem area. And so how important it is to get qualified competent applicators and fabricators in these markets because it doesn't take a lot for the word to spread that something is bad. It's a lot harder to get the word out that something is great and good. And I think the fluoropolymer coatings really fit that. And I think the applicators like the Phoenix fabricators is so important to do this. We really appreciate what you guys do and you make it possible for us to keep increasing our sales into the U .S. market. We really appreciate you as customers. We'll wrap it up now. I thank you guys for coming. Brian Cheshire of Tnemec and Kurt Fuller of Phoenix Fabricators and Erectors.

Brian Cheshire
Winn, thank you for having us and I think I can speak for all of us that I think we're all hungry for gummy bears now.

Winn Darden
There you go.

Kurt T. Fuller
Yeah, thanks for allowing me to join, gentlemen.

Winn Darden
We appreciate you coming, Kurt. Thank you very much. 

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