Winn Darden:
This is, Winn Darden. I am the business manager for the Lumiflon FEVE fluoropolymer resins. Welcome to our new podcast series called In the Mix. The podcasts are all about choosing the right coding solutions where we discuss with industry experts, what influences their decision-making processes when it comes to specifying and using coatings, we'll delve into how experts develop their strategic planning approach to current structural and future market demands in today's episode, we'll be talking with Jennifer Gleisberg of TNEMEC about the key role that performance plays in coding technology. Jennifer is the senior manager for performance coatings at TNEMEC and she will detail what processes her company goes through with emphasis on research, testing, durability and life cycle analysis when they're developing and using their coatings. Jennifer, thank you for coming in and why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and TNEMEC, if you would.

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Yeah, thanks for having me today, Winn. So I am, as Winn said, the Senior Manager of Performance coatings for TNEMEC. But I originally started with TNEMEC in 2002 in our customer service department and have thus moved over time into our sales department and assisting our agency representatives in the field with day-to-day activities. And assistance with projects and performance testing and a whole wide range of information that they require to do their job in the field. So.

Winn Darden:
Okay. One second, let me get back. So Jennifer, we kind of wanted to talk about, I guess go through the process you guys use. You're manufacturing high-performance coatings. How do you start to formulate materials like that? And what role is, how important is the formulation and its performance over periods of time?

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Sure. Well, so coating formulations are comprised of many different ingredients that could be resins, curing agents, extenders, additives, color pigments, in addition to that, solvents. And each of those ingredients offer a wide range of raw material suppliers who may offer several different options to choose from. So that creates an exponential number of possible formula combinations. And coatings are typically grouped generically by chemistry, whether that's an epoxy, a urethane, a fluoropolymer. But they may be formulated completely different from each other. So that, in turn, creates very different application characteristics and performance attributes for that particular coating. So, formulating using only the highest quality ingredients allows manufacturers of high performance coatings like TNEMEC to ensure that our formulations are able to perform in both accelerated testing environments as well as real-world applications in the field. Running performance testing following industry recognized testing standards helps us to qualify each coating's ability to resist. things like UV light, abrasion, and other causes of coating degradation.

Winn Darden:
Okay. And you mentioned now accelerated weathering. What type of, well, why would you use accelerated weathering and then what type of testing would you run on a coding that would be considered accelerated testing?

Jennifer Gleisberg:
So there's different accelerated testing, but say you're talking about UV exposure, that would be something like ASTM D4141 for EMMAQA, and that would show, you know, in an accelerated time period how that coating is going to perform when subjected to UV degradation.

Winn Darden:
Okay, and that EMMAQUA test I think is quicker than natural weathering, right?

Jennifer Gleisberg:
It is, yeah. And I plan to, I think throughout the rest of the podcast, I plan to kind of get into some of that. But yes, it is a little bit quicker and it also is easily correlated to real world, you know, South Florida exposure as well.

Winn Darden:
So how do you, with the different coating types, how do you compare coating types and then coatings made by different manufacturers?

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Yeah, that's a great question. So subjecting a coating as well as a complete coating system, whether that's just a primer or a primer and intermediate and a top coat, to extensive testing can help to provide that true performance profile of a product. So running that extensive testing using a wide variety of test methods showcases a product's strong and weak attributes. as no coating is superior in, of course, all of those areas. That could be high UV exposure, as I mentioned, the ASTM D4141 for EMMAQUA, or corrosive conditions with ASTM D5894 for salt spray fog, or ASTM G85 with cyclic salt fog prohesion. This testing can provide the needed criteria to base educated selection and provide specific performance metrics to include in a specification when you're looking for performance to be added. In theory, that means that careful analysis of comprehensive product performance data, as I mentioned, taken from a multitude of different tests, is the best way to determine the true differences in coatings from one manufacturer to the next.

Winn Darden:
And there are several, well, quite a number of choices you have in that area. There's UV light called QUVA, QUVB, you mentioned the EMMAQUA, there's Xenon Arc. There's a whole series of these tests that people run through. Now, when you do the accelerated testing, obviously you can't simulate the real world 100% in an accelerated test. Do you combine that information with the data that you have from say exposures in South Florida, which would be considered real time?

Jennifer Gleisberg:
We do, we combine that so yes, we're not only using the accelerated data, we're using real world performance data as well to combine those together to understand the performance of the coating and not just using one or the other to determine that.

Winn Darden:
Okay. And you guys have, as I, my understanding is you guys have more than, well, some of your coatings are more than 20 or 25 years of real time exposure.

Jennifer Gleisberg:
That's right. And I'll talk throughout the other portions of the podcast about case histories and how that is also important, not just using your real life and accelerated testing, but also applying the case histories to that to determine the real true lifecycle of the coating system and how long it's going to perform.

Winn Darden:
And why would you use that accelerated testing? I know what reason for that? What reason would you use that? Real time, obviously, is the best thing you can do. 

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Sure, but as we know, coating technology is very dynamic and initial results are required quickly. So accelerated laboratory testing is intended to put extra stress on a coating and cause premature degradation. The usefulness of that accelerated testing is that it's standardized with controlled perimeters, which allows for that comparison between products when you're determining, you know, which product is gonna be the best for a particular project. And it also helps to compare manufacturers and the valuable performance attributes of a particular product. So accelerated testing can be correlated to real world performance, as I mentioned, if the data is available. And we talked about the EMMAQUA ASTM D4141, which is that equatorial mount for mirrors for acceleration with water. And it is the most widely used outdoor accelerated weathering test. And it's reported in megajoules per meter squared. And that test protocol is designed to emulate extended sunlight exposure. Those results can be compared with years of average South Florida radiation. So that's when you were talking about the real world performance. And to put it into the listener's perspective, three to four months of a EMMAQUA testing or 280 to 300 megajoules per meter squared equates to roughly around one year of South Florida radiation. So I think putting it in that context helps one understand how those accelerated tests can correlate to real world exposure testing as well.

Winn Darden:
So you guys must work pretty hard then on trying to correlate these accelerated tests, huh?

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Absolutely, yeah, because in the real world, if you want five years of case histories, that coating's gotta be around and be tested for five years or 20 years, the same thing, however you're looking at it. So it takes quite a while to get that real life, real world performance data, and the accelerated testing helps us as a manufacturer understand how our coating's are gonna perform in a shorter period of time.

Winn Darden:
Okay. Is that standardized type testing? Is that all you need to prove the quality and long-term performance of a particular coating or coating system?

Jennifer Gleisberg:
I mean, the standardized testing definitely helps. But product selection should not only be based on testing, but rather that combination of testing, both accelerated and real world, as well as case histories. So asset preservation really starts with selecting the right coating system. So you want, when you're looking at any type of project, and the owner says they want. 25 to 30 years of performance, we have to look at it as a manufacturer and determine what products are going to work in that application, just like a specifier would when they're writing a specification. So there's lots of influential properties that can affect how long a coating lasts. That could be formulation, that could be structural design, could be environmental conditions. application procedures, and et cetera. So the coating system used to protect an asset should be selected on the basis of the asset's environment. So you don't wanna recommend a coating or choose a coating that's not gonna be applicable for the environment that you're trying to protect. With the product's particular performance strengths matching that asset's environment. And as I mentioned, whether those are you know, pressures with UV light, whether that's a coastal environment where the coating could degrade, you know, at a quicker rate than in a different environment, the coating chosen should be designed to stand up to them. And it should also be verified that the coatings anticipated lifespan. And what I mean by lifespan is, yeah, how long that coating is going to last or how long you need that coating to last fits with the long-term asset management timeline, as well as the life cycle cost. So are you looking at a coating that may be more expensive in the beginning when you're pricing out the project, but it could last twice as long and in theory be less expensive over the lifetime of that project, of the lifetime of that coating and that project.

Winn Darden:
Okay. So how would you monitor the life cycle costs? Talk a little bit about that. How do you guys do that? And I'm assuming that's based both on accelerated testing and on real time data when you present that to an architect or an engineer or an asset owner.

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Yeah, of course, perform the performance data comes into play there, as well as just understanding, yeah, how long that coating is going to to do its job over that period of time, say that's 20 years, and you're looking at the cost over that 20 years of having to do maintenance, you know, to keep that coating up, or are you going to choose a a product in the beginning that costs less, but has to be applied or had maintenance on it every five years. So in theory that of course would cost more because you're having to do application and surface prep and all these things that are part of that lifecycle cost when you could choose a coating that might maybe... little more expensive in the beginning, but last year that 20 year period where you don't have maintenance. And on we were very, a big market for us is water tanks. And so water tanks is something where you wouldn't want to have to recoat that every five to 10 years, you know, you want something that's going to last 25 to 30 years and give you that protection.

Winn Darden:
Okay. So you mentioned things like surface preparation, coating costs go into that. Are there any other factors that you might consider in that life cycle cost analysis?

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Yeah, there's labor, there's equipment, there's supplies, there's environmental related impacts and costs, there's asset downtime. Of course, you've got the material and your surface prep, as I mentioned already too. So those are all things in addition to equipment, those are all things that are going to affect that life cycle cost of a coating, whether that be. Like I said, a coating that's going to last five to seven years or a coating that's going to last 10 to 12 years. Or if you're looking at terms of a fluoropolymer, you're wanting that 20 to 30 year color and gloss protection. Does that help?

Winn Darden:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm just kind of, what, uh, units would you come down to basically with that? I think something like dollars per square foot or, uh, you know,

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Yep.

Winn Darden:
Is coding costs plus all these other costs, right?

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Yes, that's correct. It's cost per gallon. Yeah, cost per square foot per gallon is really what that that narrows down to. And as a coating manufacturer, you know, we, our coating representatives are able to help, you know, walk somebody through that life cycle cost and determine, you know, here you're looking at two coatings side by side and you're able to determine the value. with life cycle costs of each of those coating systems and which one would be of the the better option based on that.

Winn Darden:
Okay, so you guys have models that you can show to your customer?

Jennifer Gleisberg:
absolutely.

Winn Darden:
Okay. Yeah, that's interesting. The fluoropolymers is where we're well, we view the upfront cost of the fluoropolymer is a lot higher than some of the other coatings, but you're usually using it on a structure like a water tank. You're doing a three coat system, right? Typically. And so that cost for the top coat, once you start looking at all three coats, because competitive systems, they have to use the same two coats that you're using, right? Yeah.

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Absolutely, yes. So that's what those, I think back to, we just presented a paper at AMP on, in March on that particular thing about the life cycle cost and there's a spreadsheet that'll kind of walk you through on a water tank looking at a fluoropolymer system in that regard too, just to kind of understand all those, you know, value. values that are included in that lifecycle cost and and that because Understanding lifecycle cost is you think it was an easy thing, but it's not it's it's something that a lot of people can't wrap their head around and it takes time to understand and walk through that process with with owners and you know Engineers to to determine which which option would be best for a project

Winn Darden:
Okay. And I know this is probably a range of answers here, but what type of an overall cost advantage for say a conventional versus say a conventional polyurethane would a fluoropolymer have? You know, at the end of the day, you would spit out a dollars per square foot per gallon or whatever that unit is. uh... that you're looking at what type of advantage with the fluoropolymers typically have, I know that varies.

Jennifer Gleisberg:
So let's look at it this way. The independent of an asset only dependent on a coating's lifespan. You take a polyurethane at six and a half mils with a predicted lifespan of 19 years and you have a cost per square foot per year of $1.21. at six and a half mils with a zinc rich primer underneath, at a predicted lifespan of 30 years, and the cost per square foot per year is only 80 cents. So you take from 80 cents to $1.21 and you can do the math easily.

Winn Darden:
that's about 30%.

Jennifer Gleisberg:
yeah, so looking at that, like I said, when you're looking at that lifecycle cost, of just the top coat, you really get that sense of understanding as to the savings that you're getting over the lifespan of that coating.

Winn Darden:
Okay. And how about your case studies now? As we mentioned earlier that you guys have had assets that have been out there for more than 20 years. What value do those case studies provide in assessing the performance of the coating then?

Jennifer Gleisberg:
So accelerated and real-world testing are important, as I mentioned, to show the overall performance of a coating and or a coating system. But in addition to the testing, real-world case histories should be utilized to document that actual life cycle of a coating or a system in a similar project environment. Those visual observations are easy to evaluate. So say you're looking at a water tank. And you can see, you know, degradation over time on a water tank pretty easily. But what about an application on the interior of a structure or in immersion or even inaccessible areas? Those are a lot harder to evaluate. So for added provability, case histories should be inspected and written by a third party. So say after, I look at the way TNEMEC does things, a water tank that's going on 20 to 25 years, we're looking at trying to get a third party, inspected and written third party case studies of the exterior and interior of those tanks to show actual provability that our systems are lasting over that period of time. Not just what TNEMEC is saying, what we see from a third party, you know, as well.


Winn Darden:
okay. So would they go to a project site or an asset site and would they look at, can they measure properties after that long?

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Yeah, yes, they can. And so it would be with the help of our, of course, our coating representative in that particular project area, that would work with the third party inspector and get that going, you know, as far as writing the report and getting that inspection to really show that. And as you mentioned earlier, we have coatings that have been around that long. And we are able to now get that third party inspecting and written reports to show that true performance of our products.

Winn Darden:
Okay, what would they be looking for?

Jennifer Gleisberg:
They look for, of course, a lot of the, say the testing, the, I mean, if there's failures, if there's things of that nature where a lot of the reports would say that, you know, it was assessed and with proper maintenance, you know, this coating system could last so much X number of years, you know, many more years.

Winn Darden:
I just wanted to get an idea. I mean, we have, in our company, of course, we did a lot of work on bridges in Japan. And one of the things they would do is they would paint half a bridge with a current coating like a polyurethane, and the other half they paint with the fluoropolymer.And then they let them sit. Some of these bridges have been out there for 30 or 35 years. And one of the things that they're in some cases are able to do is to monitor gloss retention and color change. So they take the initial readings and then they go back every several years and they'll read it again. Of course they clean the surface. I think they get accumulation of dirt on it and everything that affects those measures. but they're actually able to deliver, you know, here's what the color change has been over the period of time that the bridge has been in service. And the fluoropolymers offer really remarkable performance, you know, with 70 or 80% gloss retention after 30 some odd years, 32, 33 years. So, and there really aren't many products that can do that. other than the fluoropolymers, in our opinion.

Jennifer Gleisberg:
And that's really, that's exactly correct. And those are really what we're getting, you know, that data on right now is the fluoropolymers.

Winn Darden:
Yeah.

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Really, it's on the tank side. Not to say that we couldn't do that on the architectural side or, you know, whatnot as well, but that's really where we are seeing those. those tanks really performing well after that amount of time and said, well, let's get a third party written, test to report and see really how these are holding up over time. So we're giving first priority to those 15 to 20 year or plus year tanks that have been coated with fluoropolymer.

Winn Darden:
Okay. You mentioned architectural coatings. Could you talk a little bit about that side of the business? I know a lot of your business is water tanks, but I think you guys have been doing more and more architectural over the years as well.

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Yeah, and you mentioned bridges, and we actually have a couple of bridges going on right now that are utilizing fluoropolymers. So those are very exciting for us because that's a market that we haven't, we've dabbled in but haven't gotten, you know, we're trying to get our feet more wet in that department. So, per se. But yeah, as far as the architectural as well, you know, that's stadium applications, that's exterior, you know, metal buildings, canopies, airport, you know, architecturally exposed structural steel, all of those things can utilize systems, you know, with polyurethanes or fluoropolymers, depending on, you know, the requirements of the project and how long they want those assets to last.

Winn Darden:
Okay. And those would typically be like the water tanks. Those would typically be repainting projects then.

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Not always, no. We probably do just as many new projects, you know, new builds as we do repaints. I don't know on a percentage, but I would say it's pretty even as to that. But looking at things, you know, of course there's always the overcoat application, but there are considerations when diving into that, you know, process as well as to. doing a test patch and understanding how the coding system is going to last over an existing substrate and coding system that was previously there as well.

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Okay, so when really with the emphasis on performance, coatings that provide long life cycles and limited maintenance are considered true high performance. In the end, an asset protection is what matters most to an owner and that's why we believe that formulation matters, testing matters and above all else, performance matters.

Winn Darden:
Okay, yeah, and I think one of the keys for what you guys do is that you provide that performance at the lowest life cycle cost.

Jennifer Gleisberg:
That's right, that is exactly right. that's really what differentiates us. I feel is that we can provide that. And we know that we're basing that off of, you know, that. Standardized testing that we we really feel is important to understand the value and performance of a product, no matter what that product is, if it's a primer, it's an intermediate. If it's a top code, they all matter in regards to performance. And that if you're looking at coatings to be used on a project, you want to make sure that you're using not only that accelerated testing, not only that real world testing, but understanding in even real life case history world that the coating is going to stand up to the environment that you're trying to put it into.

Winn Darden:
Okay. Very good. Thank you, Jennifer. We thank you for participating in the, in the podcast. 

Jennifer Gleisberg:
Yes, thank you. 

Thank You for listening to our podcast, In the Mix. If you enjoyed this episode and you’d like to here more, be sure to subscribe. To catch all the latest from Lumiflon, you can visit our website at Lumiflon USA .com, or follow us on Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn @LumiflonUSA. Thanks again, see you next time.