Winn Darden Hi, this is Winn Darden, Business Manager for Lumiflon FEVE fluoropolymer resins. Welcome to our new podcast series In the Mix. This is all about helping people choose the coating solution. We'll discuss with industry experts what influences their decision-making processes when it comes to coatings, and we'll delve into how experts develop their strategic planning approach to current structural and future market demands. In this episode, we'll talk with Gary Edgar, National Architectural Specification Manager for PPG on how they, as a coating supplier, develop and meet the requirements of a coating spec in the architectural space. Gary will educate us on their processes and what are some of the challenges they encounter along the way. Well, good morning, Gary. I'm glad you were able to join us. Tell us a little bit about yourself. I know you have a lot of experience in coatings and would like to hear a little bit about that if we could. Gary Edgar Good morning, Winn. I'm glad to be here. Hello, everyone. Yeah, so I'm Gary Edgar. I'm the National Specification Manager for PPG on our industrial coatings for building products. So I actually work with specifiers, fabricators, or applicators, and I try to close the gap, or close the loop between the architect, the applicator, the fabricator and the owner at the end of the day. So I also write the warranties for our building products. So that includes not only our powder coats,on the extrusion side, but also our liquid coatings for extrusion, our coil coatings that are liquid, and then also our air dry coatings, air dry for our polymers that, you know, typically get long-term warranties. So it's great to be here, Winn. Winn Darden Good, well thanks, Gary. Let's start talking about powder coatings. I think there's a lot of interest in the architectural segment today in powder. You guys have kind of a unique product platform. I think you call that the Coraflon Platinum. Tell us a little about it. Gary Edgar Certainly, Winn. So yes, our Corafon Platinum has been out on the market for now a little bit more than two years. So we had the original Corafon powder, which was FEVE, the backbone. And then Coraflon Platinum is our second generation. So although we've had the product on the market for two years commercially, it's actually been on the fence for over 10 years. So we've been developing this powder technology for a long time. And part of that 10 years, that's a long time, but for FGIA and AAMA specifications for 2605, you really need to have, it's voluntary, but you really need to have exposure of 10 years, 10 years on the fence. To really know that color shift and that chalk and how the material is really gonna hold up. But with our Coraflon Platinum, not only were we, you know, made sure that it meets these FGIA on 2605 specifications, we were able to make it 25% more transfer efficient. So what does that mean? More powder on the part. Less powder being wasted, although powder is not really wasted if you have the proper boosts that can recycle powder because it is recyclable. You can reclaim the powder that doesn't land on there. But still, that takes time. So, you know, it's 20% more efficient. And so we also, with this platinum platform, we were concerned about corrosion. One thing with our Coraflon is it really it's a one coat powder but in seacoast conditions and most powders that we saw in that 2605 space without a primer in a seacoast condition would fail. They would have philiform corrosion, they'd have corrosion problems. Where our Coraflon Platinum we developed it as a single coat application for seacoast environments. So far it's performed 10 times better than our Coraflon without a primer, our first generation Coraflon. So we're excited about that. And we also introduced a lower sheen. So with that product line, we were able to actually get down into a matte finish, maybe a five or 10 sheen, if you will. And what that enables us to do is actually get into that anodized space. Winn Darden Okay. Gary Edgar I mean, anodized aluminum is out there. It's used all the time. Everyone sees it every day. But the neat thing is with our powder coat that looks like anodized, the black, the silver anodized, which is the classic and the champagne. But we're able to offer long-term warranties of 20 years where the anodizing doesn't offer those types of warranties. Winn Darden And anodizing is a pretty dirty process, isn't it? Gary Edgar It's a pretty dirty process Winn I don't know if you've ever been to an anodized facility, but if there's a lot of chemicals there, a lot of dip tanks it's not as environmentally friendly as one would think. So. Winn Yes. Okay, now when you guys are selling the technology, what are the key benefits of powder versus liquid that you talked to the architect about? Gary Edgar Well, I mean, so powder's really actually come a long way. The disadvantage of powder, years ago, and with PPG, we've had Duranar for 56 years, and that liquid appearance, it's pretty smooth, ? When you have a product that's 30% solids and you bake it down, you can get it to lay out pretty smoothly. And one of the challenges with powder is trying to get that smooth finish, especially with architects. Everybody's there. They're looking at the hood of their car, ? And they're wanting their building that they're designing to look the same way. So some of the key advances with our new platinum platform is that we can get it to actually lay down and be fairly smooth, very smooth. So. Gary Edgar In fact, I was up in an architect's office last week up in New York and we laid out some panels and they were a little shocked they thought they were liquid but they were powder. And not only were they powder, they were smooth, but we had Micas and metallics. And Micas and metallics in a powder has been a challenge as you know. Winn Darden Oh yeah. Yes, yep, very difficult, yep. Gary Edgar very difficult. In the industry, they almost call it a liquid-like appearance for the powder. To get that smoothness and those really sparkly metallics. So we've been able to improve that, and the technology in powder is moving forward that samples that we did five years ago and samples that we do today, trying to match some of those liquid samples that are very popular the gap is closed tremendously. In fact, some of these colors, you can't really tell the difference between the liquid and the powder. Winn Darden Wow, that's just great. So you really are offering a lot of new design dimensions to the architect. So if you want matte versus glossy, smooth, if you want a texture, you can do that, but you guys have overcome some of the issues with powder with the platinum? Gary Edgar Well, exactly. And when you talk about design, that's really where the advantage comes in with powder because you know it's a single coat application. So with that single coat application you can get these micas and metallic looks without a clear coat that sometimes you need in a liquid. But more importantly you could get multicolors. You can get a multicolor, a stone look and a one coat application. It's it's mixed in with the powder. It's part of the application. So you could have actually several colors and throw in some micro metallic pigment and offer a little bit higher sheen. We talked about the matte finish, but the sheen with, especially with the FEVE resin, you can go all the way up to a gloss. So the design capabilities are just tremendous. So some of the, some of the, Colors that we've done, certainly we've talked about the anodized, but a stone granite look, speckled look, some texture, rolling texture. And also with the powder coatings, we've actually been able to increase some of the color space. I mean, you have to be careful when you're in 2605. I mean, architects sometimes and designers and owners think that they can get a really vibrant color that's gonna last a long time on the exterior of the building. And we have systems that we can try to provide that. But by using some of the technologies of the FEVE powder, we have a clear coat. So we've been actually able to take some of those maybe exotic colors and maybe make those in a 2604 and then put the clear coat on top of it. Winn Darden Wow. Gary Edgar So there's definitely more capabilities with the powder today. And again, architects like that. I mean, we've had buildings that are terracotta on the bottom floor. And instead of the other 40 floors, maybe being a terracotta, which you got to maintain. The skeleton, typically, of the building has to be stronger to withstand the weight. We've matched that terracotta in a powder and painted it all on aluminum and a curtain wall and it all looks very uniform. So the average person walking down the street doesn't realize they think the whole building's terracotta but actually only the first two floors are. Winn Darden Wow, that's pretty impressive there. Now, I know we're seeing in the market now, we think that there's a move away from the liquid coatings to some extent. Are you guys seeing the same thing? The level of interest at the architect? Gary Edgar Well, certainly. Certainly. I mean, sustainability is the second word, besides color? Out of everyone's, I want to say, design initiative? It's all about sustainability, but it's also about the color. So trying to bring those two in is what we're doing with powder. I sustainability with powder. So in explaining this to architects and building owners and even applicators, when you talk about powder coats, the only thing that's missing is the solvent. I mean, at the end of the day, the powder has the resin, which is the backbone, you know, fluoroethylene vinyl ether? FEVE, that's the backbone. They all have the pigments? The color. Winn Darden Right Gary Edgar They actually add some UV durability, maybe some corrosion resistance, some additives. And then those pigments also have the mica look, you have the textures, you have different things in there. But there's no solvent. So you have the same things in a liquid. So when you start removing that solvent piece out of the coating process, I mean, it really increases the sustainability piece of it? You don't have to worry about VOC. And a lot of architects that are studying and learning about sustainability, it's not only during the application that there's no solvents. But when you manufacture the powder coatings, there's no solvent in our process either. So there's no solvent when we when we manufacture them. So what does that mean? That means that we don't have to have barrels of solvent in our manufacturing plants. And the applicator at the end of the day doesn't have a powder applicator doesn't have all that solvent either to clean up with. It's actually a very clean process. Winn Darden Cleaner operation. Yeah What do you think short term and long term? What is what do you guys see in the in the powder market? Gary Edgar Absolutely. Well, in the short term, education. Education, there's a lot of architects and specifiers and designers that are familiar with powder coats, but there's a lot that are not familiar with that. And they don't understand the difference. They don't understand maybe what they can achieve with that, with the multicolors. And sometimes they actually want to try to achieve a look with that's a liquid coating that they can get at maybe a conventional or a boutique that really is not sustainable and can't be done in a liquid coating because it requires multiple, multiple passes, multiple coats to get that maybe like a patina look. Where we can do that in a powder, one coat. So, you know, short-term is just educating, educating the whole industry on powder. The different appearances. And the other thing that's, I do believe that it's accelerating powder as we move forward is the cost between a powder application and a liquid application used to be substantially different. The powder used to cost more. But with going with a one coat powder and actually some of the costing of the raw materials and where the world has gone after the pandemic, the cost between liquid and powder is actually pretty similar, depending on the lines. Depends on the applicator, but they're more in line. So costing kind of, you take that out and then powder becomes even more advantageous. Winn Darden Yeah, we've heard that there's an increase in the number of vertical powder coating lines that are coming over to the U.S. now. And we understand that lowers significantly the applied cost of the powder. Gary Edgar Exactly. Vertical lines and what we're seeing from our side is, again, I mean, we've been in the liquid side for a long time. But we're seeing our long-time applicators, you know, adding new lines but not adding liquid lines. They're wanting to add, they're moving toward powder because they see, they see the movement. They can see it from the architects. But then they also see it from the standpoint of, again, when you start taking out all that solvent that's needed and you don't have the VOC issues and the disposal of powders relatively inexpensive compared to liquid products and all the hazardous waste, it becomes, I want to say, a no-brainer. It's like everybody's moving that way. So it's easier to actually see it specified, get it specified, and get it applied. Winn Darden Okay. Gary, do you have accredited or licensed coders that you use for your powder coating? Gary Edgar Absolutely. So we have our CAP program, which is our certified applicator program, and we have their liquid and powder, and then we have our approved applicators that are both liquid and powder. So we're trying as we go forward, certainly increasing the amount of powder, because if you look through our website at ppgmetalcoatings.com over our applicators, most of them are liquid. What we're seeing is the trend to move to powder coaters. So we have, actually we have a dedicated technical team that works with our powder, just like we do with our liquid. So We're definitely moving that direction with powder, and our applicators are moving with that and with us as partners. Winn Darden Okay, that's great. So, changing the subject a little bit, you guys also offer air dry fluoropolymer coatings for the rehabilitation market. Gary Edgar Absolutely, Winn. I'm glad you brought that up. So again, we use the FEVE resin in our air dry Coraflon ADS air dry system. So in PPG, Coraflon is our FEVE resin backbone coating system. So we actually have a Coraflon in our coil side that we use as a clear coat to get many different sheens and also add dimensional looks and we also use that resin to give maybe a semi-transparent look on the coil side. So you still have that metal like appearance, but you can see through it. And then we have our Coraflon ADS. Now Coraflon ADS we've had for over 20 years in the PPG lineup and that's actually where I really started with air dry fluoropolymers and some of the buildings that have go back and 20 years ago, you go there today, they do have some of the maybe factory applied Duranar on different column covers, but the majority of the building was coated in Coraflon. You take a dark bronze and you go back 20 years later and you can't tell the difference between the air dry and the factory applied. Winn Darden Yeah. Boy, that's great, isn't it? Gary Edgar It certainly is. I mean, so it's expanded. And we started off recoating buildings because again, you know, we talk about we've been in this architectural space with AMMA for a long time. So 30 years into it, you could start to see, hey, what if somebody wants to go back and repaint one of these buildings? How are you going to get that long term durability? So the cost of the coating is a fraction. It's 10, maybe 20%. The big piece of it is the labor. So if you can get a service life of 20 to 30 years out of one application and your cost savings becomes tremendous. Typically using conventional coatings, urethanes are very popular, it's on your automobile and we get comments from architects, well, you know this urethane's really good. Listen, I get a lifetime warranty on my automobile. It's like, well, yeah, certainly as long as you own it, but it's not gonna last like a fluoropolymer. It's not gonna give you that long-term durability. Winn Darden Yeah, and especially as a single top coat system, I think. That's really where the fluoropolymers accelerate. Gary Edgar Exactly. And just to expand a little bit. So we started with buildings, but we've moved into certainly, I mean, water tanks, bridges, roller coasters, different substrates, fiberglass, where you can't really go back and put a factory applied material on fiberglass because it'll melt. You can go back and use this system on fiberglass panels and you'll get something that's going to last a long time. Winn Darden Great, that's great. I'm gonna back up for a minute and talk about powder, Can you give us any information on any notable buildings that you've done with the Coraflon Platinum? Gary Edgar Well, now we're working on a large project in Boston. It's Landmark III. It's really just coming out of the gate and it's gonna be one of the largest actually projects on the East Coast this year. So it's got a little bit late start, but there's several Coraflon platinum colors on that project. And we're certainly looking forward to it. And again, it's probably gonna be the biggest project that's ongoing in 2024 in the US. Winn Darden What about the previous Coraflon? Any notable buildings that were done with the standard Coraflon? Gary Edgar Yes, so with our Coraflon product, and these are certainly available in our, I mean, Hudson Yards in New York City. We've done those, the PNC Tower in Pittsburgh, and City Walk in Brooklyn is another one that we've done. So we've done several large projects with our powder coats. Absolutely. Winn Darden Okay. Any notable buildings that you've repainted? I know I've seen some pictures of roof coating on hotels down in the Caribbean, I think. But any ones that have note that you can mention? Gary Edgar Well, there's so we've done, I mean, we do several main large projects a year. It's slowed down a little bit with COVID. But one, we just finished up and it took a lot longer because of the pandemic. There's One Penn in New York City. And if you if you go down there, that building was actually an anodized look. And we started that before that in 2019. We started that project in New York City and they just finished up earlier this year, but all that anodizing now is a matte black. Which is really interesting because we talk about the matte and the powder coat. Everybody's looking for that matte sheen. You're starting to see it on cars. And usually once it starts in automotive, it goes into appliances and it ends up with buildings. People want that look. So. Winn Darden Wow. Gary Edgar That building is actually done in a matte black, especially for them. And yeah, it's changed the whole, the entire look of that building and then all the new construction that's going on is matching the same. So that whole campus is gonna be, it's gonna look the same and it's gonna age the same. Winn Darden Okay, well that's great. Very interesting, Gary. I really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us and we'll be looking out for other Coraflon projects and working with you closely so we can keep selling those Lumiflon fluoropolymer resins, FEVE, to you. Gary Edgar Oh, absolutely. When I appreciate the opportunity and absolutely, I mean, powder's powders, the wave of the future. Winn Darden That's what we think. Thank You for listening to our podcast, In the Mix. If you enjoyed this episode and you’d like to here more, be sure to subscribe. To catch all the latest from Lumiflon, you can visit our website at Lumiflon USA .com, or follow us on Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn @LumiflonUSA. Thanks again, see you next time.