Winn Darden: I am Winn Darden, Business Manager for Lumiflon Fluoropolymer Resins for North America. Welcome to our new podcast series called In the Mix, Choosing the Right Coating Solution, where we'll be discussing with industry experts what influences their decision-making processes when it comes to coatings. We'll delve into how experts develop their strategic planning approach to current structural and future market demands. In this episode, we'll talk with three powder coaters. These are the people who actually apply FEVE fluoropolymer powder coatings to make functional components for architectural and other markets. We'll talk about powder coating application process, including surface preparation, coating application, the importance of quality control. We'll discuss how they view the AMMA 2605 durable powder coating market along with future trends, the importance of coder certification, and their involvement in the coating specification process. We'll review the increasing importance of sustainability in their business and how do they incorporate it into their processes. I'd like to welcome Kevin Maas of Maas Brothers in Livermore, California, Jared Ruggieri of Spectrum Metal Finishing in Youngstown, Ohio, and Jim Hester of Quality Powder Coatings from Carrollton, Texas. I'd also like to welcome Fiona Levin-Smith from IFS Coatings in Gainesville, Texas. IFS supplies the fluoropolymer powder coatings to our customers. I really thank you all for doing the podcast. Jim Hester Absolutely, Jim Hester, QPC Finish in Dallas. We were founded in 1993. Been at the company 21 years this time around. 800,000 square foot facility here in Dallas with customers from Hawaii to London and everywhere in between. So I'm the business development and sales manager for the company and pushing towards with a rifle point towards architectural aluminum. No more shotgunning, not looking for industrial coating, strictly aiming at architectural. Jared Ruggieri I'm Jared Rageri, the national sales manager for Spectrum metal finishing. Spectrum is one of the largest privately held architectural coders in the U S located just outside of Pittsburgh. In my role with Spectrum, I work with glazing contractors, architects, and paint manufacturers in the color and paint selection system selection process to achieve the architect's and owner's vision and goals for a project. Kevin Maas Yeah, I'm Kevin Moss with Moss Brothers Powder Coating. And we've been in business since 1998. And we started small like everybody and grew to the architectural and more. We do anything that people bring into us because everybody's parts are just as important as the next part. If it's a little piece or a big piece. And the architectural side is a whole nother push towards another level and we are constantly pushing to be the best that we can. And it forces us to do the best we can all the time. So we were always pushing for everything, but architectural is a new, we're seeing a trend. There's a lot of outside of building facades and stuff like that, that it's going that way. So yeah, that's why we chose that. Fiona My name is Fiona Levin-Smith. I work at IFS Coatings. I've been working in powder coatings for 16 or 17 years now, originally in Europe, and then I implanted to the US about 10 years ago, which is about how long I've known Rowan now, I think, about 10 years. And I look after the architectural specification outside of IFS Coatings as well, which is a lot of fun and keeps me out of trouble. Winn Darden So in the process of a project, what is the coater's role as far as that goes, Jared? Jared Ruggieri Yeah. And depending on the size of the architectural job, we may be included in the color paint selections process, um, or paint system selection process. Architects will often call on our expertise to guide them towards the best coating system for the environment the project is located in. And that usually, you know, you oftentimes the paint specification is already determined and we just needed to, we just need to confirm that we can apply it and provide the warranty that they're looking for. The ability to meet and exceed AMMA FGIA specifications and paint code product data sheets selected for the project is one of our core roles as a coder across the board and adhering to the performance specification like an AMMA 2605 also gives everyone on the project a clear guide for the tolerances in the coding system. So it just gives you that one thing to look at. It gives you the guidelines on how to inspect the coding system and how it's expected to perform like Kevin mentioned earlier you know, in regards to not having any general guideline for, you know, the general industrial coatings, the AMMA specification gives us a nice guideline on what we need to follow and how it needs to perform. Winn Darden Okay, Jim, how about you in the process? How do you guys get involved? Jim Hester Oh, we've taken it very, very seriously by approaching it from all different angles. I've spent an enormous time, 135 nights in hotels, 110 flights last year, doing 77 Lunch and Learns. So I'm out there promoting the finish nationwide, literally from Honolulu to New York and everywhere in between with these architects. And I know I'm raising the level of the lake for all of us on this call. It should be helping all of us on this call because I think I'm doing it for the greater good, which is powder coating in general and inevitably I will benefit from it. I do benefit from it, but I do think I've been a lot of other powder coders just trying to get everybody on board with the fact that we're here, it's environmentally friendly. So a coater, you know, we're, I'm driving it from the architect spec writer area. I'm driving it from the referrals from powder manufacturers. I'm referring it, you know, from LinkedIn, all different areas to, to get us all more work in this field. So we're driving from all directions. Kevin Maas Yeah, there is, you know, AMMA is, it's a spec. You, there is no tolerance. You have to maintain because everyone's standing behind it. You know, powder companies are standing behind it. I'm standing behind it. And as far as, you know, getting to pick the color, I wish the architects called me first because I'd tell them not to do certain metallics and, you know, our system. When I put my system in, I did it because I wasn't doing 2605. And we actually can prime and top coat in the same lap. So I've got oscillators with priming capabilities and the infrared oven that half cures everything. And then I can top coat right after that. So that has opened up doors for us because we can do this a specific company, I can't really say that's in Texas. We were able to do a lot of parts for them, and they built their line around what we could do for them. So again, you always have to be out front on trying something new. And we took a gamble when we added that line and added the infrared pre-gel. So we can use it to touch up parts. We can use it to get a thicker coating for other than architectural reasons, but it gives us a lot of flexibility. So it's very tight tolerance on all that stuff. Jared Ruggieri And do you mind if I add one more thing? Yeah, you mind if I add one more thing? So I think Kevin and Jim would both agree, but it's also important that a coater can effectively communicate with the project team and troubleshoot in real time when a project requires extra attention, whether it's due to the coating system or project schedule, because a lot of coaters out there may not have that capability. I know all the guys on this call do, but I think that's probably one of the most important roles as a coater. Winn Darden Right. Winn Darden Okay. Yeah, we hear that some of those deadlines that you get into are pretty tight with delivery for the powder and then application of the powder. It's got to be done in a relatively short period of time. So the ability to do that, I think is really important in the powder market, especially when you're competing with liquid, which can deliver that pretty easily, I guess. Jared Ruggieri Yeah, exactly. Winn Darden How about the specifications? What role does that play in the project for Jim? Jim Hester You know, I just wish the specifications were written correctly. We live in a world where it's copy paste and there's very few companies, that have good, strong specs. And we hand them good, strong specs from Fiona, from myself, I'm sure Jared, I mean, we all drive that specification to get a good, clean spec to be in and be considered. Because I tell them, you know, let the GC have the opportunity to use liquid or powder if they choose, you know, or equivalent But um, you don't lock it into a three-part liquid because I don't shoot liquid So if I lose it as powder, I lose it completely some other companies do both and they have the benefit of swapping back and forth But I'm you know pinpointed on powder so just getting good specs out there in the hands of these specification writers and get these guys to quit copying, pasting and lowering just old information. It's just an uphill battle and has been for about 10 years now. Winn Darden Mm-hmm. Winn Darden Okay. I mean, do they listen to you? Do they change the spec? Okay. All right. Jim Hester Yes, absolutely. They do. Winn Darden Yeah, sure. Yeah. How about you, Kevin? What experience you, I'm sure you have plenty of experience with it. Kevin Maas Yeah, I would say I agree with Jim. I appreciate Jim going to talk to those people because the architects, you know, if we can open their minds and get them to at least understand, I do liquid too. And I won't take the liquid jobs because liquid's phasing out. I took one of my booths out. I've got one booth and it only is to accommodate my customers that already do powder, sometimes there's a little plastic piece or something that has to get painted to go along with it. Or I mean, it could be a car rim with a center cap that's plastic. That's, I try to minimize the liquid that I use because of the VOCs, the air quality, California, it's all coming to a head. And there's always a way to do it in powder. And if there's not, If you can get it on the front side architecturally, they can design it to be done that way. So it takes a lot of trust though. It really does. Trust is a big one. So Jim, I appreciate putting the effort in because I don't like flying. So I don't like traveling. You can do all of it for me. Jim Hester That's all we do. Winn Darden Yeah, Jim's still young enough to do it. That's the thing. I feel older every day. I just got back from Boston last night and God, every time I make that flight, I'm like, okay, that's it. I'm done. So, Jared, how about you on the question, the spectrum on that question? Jim Hester Hahaha Jim Hester Right. Jared Ruggieri Yeah. So the spec drives the drives the application process. So the spec is very important in the role of the coating process. Um, one thing that Jim kind of hinted at was, you know, educating, making sure that the entire market is educated on the specifications, whether it's for liquid or powder and making sure that some of the nuances between the two are worked out. Uh, I believe I heard in a previous podcast, someone mentioning a three code powder and a specification. And I think we've all seen that a few times. Um, You know, just making sure that everyone's aware of how the specifications for powder should be written and by all means, I think anyone should feel free to reach out to us to any of us on the call, you know, to assist with that specification. Winn Darden Okay. Winn Darden Well, we're all for those three coat, uh, FEVE coating standards. We sell three times the material. So 15 mils, whatever you want to put on, right? Jared Ruggieri Ah, I will. Jim Hester 10, 15, 15 codes, whatever you want. Jared Ruggieri Yeah, yeah, well, I'm sure we would all be happy to spray three coats. Three times around the line. Two times. Kevin Maas Yeah. Jim Hester Right? Winn Darden And do you guys have input in, I'm assuming you do. I mean, if you can change the spec or you can work with the architect to modify or change the spec, so you do have input into the specification of the codings at some point or another. Kevin Maas You can't get any architect to do any changing, never. No, they make up their mind, they've already drawn it, it's already on a paper. And to just to go back to change stuff is a lot of work. No one wants to go through that extra work. And then they go through and they change it, their name's on it. So if something fails, it's on their names on it. So people lose their jobs over that stuff nowadays, so it's a tricky thing. That's my take on it. Winn Darden Oh, is that right? Yeah, that's true. Jared Ruggieri Yeah, and I agree. It depends on the project. We found that the larger the project and the closer the timeframe to construction, the tighter the specification because there are simply too many moving parts on the project to begin to allow alternate submissions across every trade, not just the aluminum finishing. It can overwhelm even the largest firms when they have alternate submissions coming in from every trade on the job. On the other hand, if we're early on the project, oftentimes we're brought into assist in the paint system and color selection process. And we have a huge say whenever that happens. So it just depends on the project size, depends on the timeframe of the project, and depends on the architect. Winn Darden Right, right. Winn Darden Okay. Winn Darden Okay. Fiona, so you're bringing opportunities to these guys? Is that kind of the way when you run into an architect that has a project, you'll recommend the certified coaters and that? Fiona We always talk to architects about registered applicators. That's one of the key things that I talk to them every time, the importance of that we can make the best powder coating on the planet. But if it's not applied properly, then it's pointless. So we rely on the registered applicators to really take our powder and apply it well and do a really good quality job so that we get what we want, the coater gets what they want, and then the architect and the building owner get a really good final product. So we talk to them about it all the time, and then we will get general contractors, sometimes will come to us, sometimes, you know, especially if my name's in the spec or something like that, then they'll come and they'll be like, hey, we need a coater in California, or we need a coat er, you know, wherever, in Texas, in Ohio, wherever, and then we will obviously, you know, send them to our registered applicators. And also registered applicators that are allowed to buy and apply Lumiflon based powder. So the 2605 fluoropolymer powder coating. So you have to be a registered applicator to buy and apply that. So that ensures that we know we're getting good quality work by having these registered applicators and then they can buy, apply, offer their warranties, all that good stuff. Fiona So maybe one or all of you, whatever you prefer, could just state what a registered applicator is? Jim Hester I use it as a brag, completely as bragging points, you know, that, you know, this, when I give a tour of our facility, or even a talk to an architect and near my lunchtime presentation show my facility, I'll say, you know, this facility has been authorized and licensed to shoot these powders. And I am tested once, twice a year by different manufacturers. And we stop and we take the time to run test parts an extreme boiling water test, extreme, you know, adhesion test and crosshatch test. And I love talking about the testing and the abuse that we put those parts like Kevin was discussing. You run test parts and test them because I carry a piece with me that is a piece of curtain wall that's been through boiling water and crosshatched and not one specimen of powder has delaminated off of it with a crosshatch test. And I said, you know, what extreme test? So to me, it's bragging rights that line back there is, has been authorized to shoot these powders and they will stand behind it in warranty as we stand behind it in warranty, you know? Jared Ruggieri Yeah, I agree with Jim that, you know, the, the testing pro or the, the testing process that our facilities are put through on a semi-annual basis, um, really does set us apart and it assures everyone in the process that they're going to be getting a consistent coating, whether regardless of who it's coming from, as long as they're, they are a registered applicator and it, it holds us to a higher standard. We mentioned that we talked about that earlier that we're held to a higher standard in our reputations on the line. And it's not only our reputation, but the reputation of the companies that certified us. Kevin Maas I would agree. It goes back and you can backtrack it to trust on a different level, but it's trust. It's trust that we're doing what we say. And you can't shortcut it because our name's on it and we stand behind it. So there are people that shortcut everything and that's not how I got to where I am. That's for sure. Pride plays a big part for me too. I'm very proud of what we've done. And like Jared has said earlier, no matter what product it is, 2603, 2604, 2605, everything in my shop is run through the same line. And it's all treated like it's the most important part because that's my name on there. So, you know, yeah, I think it's, to be certified is a special thing. To have someone copy you is a special thing. Have someone refer you as a special thing. It doesn't come overnight. It comes from years of experience or years of great service. Just as it does having a great salesman. You have to have good salespeople behind you because I need them. Now I use Jared all the time. And...I know I can count on them. To me, that's important. If I can't count on them, it's only 50% of the work. Anybody can buy equipment. But if you don't have good service, it doesn't help you. Fiona Yeah, and when I guess for us, the, the registered applicator program basically means we can, like I said before, we trust the registered applicators, but we do ask them to do a lot. So to become a registered applicator, they have to go through strict line audits, we ask them to audit themselves, we go in and audit. And obviously, we're looking at every part of the process from pre treat through application through cure through record keeping all of that good stuff. Then we take panels and parts, they run them through all of And then we put those panels and parts through a whole range of armor 2605 tests. And then, um, if they, if every single piece and part passes, then they become a registered applicator, they fill in a little bit of paperwork, and then they become, and then that, like I said before, they can buy and apply the 2605, you know, the lumiflon, fluoropolymer powder coatings at 2605 level. And then, um, we retest them, um, every couple of years, because we obviously want to make maintaining standards and obviously that our power is still working well in the line. We're there, our reps are there all the time. I don't think anything would ever be a surprise but it's good to keep that again documentation record keeping make sure that we've got all of that on file and then we work we partner with the registered applicators as well. Winn Darden Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I sold polyurea coatings for a while. And I remember when you'd get a failure, they'd always call you, the manufacturer of the paint because they figured and then inevitably you'd go out there and it was application that was the problem. It was not the coating. It was the way it was applied. So even though it's a factory application, fewer variables and the like, the same thing seems to still apply. So. Kevin, where do you see the high durability AMMA 2605 market headed in the next few years? Kevin Maas I definitely see it going stronger because it, you know, like I said, I in the last, it's been maybe two or three years we've been doing it, maybe a little longer. I believe in it. And when I believe in it, I can push it because my name is on it. Like I said earlier, I liked it because you can't strip it. There's no chemical that will strip the 2605. It's bulletproof. And if I can't get it off, then I'm comfortable. That's where I see, I see the confidence building. It takes what Jim's building with the architects, it takes time to build all that reputation. Jared's working on the front side. That's a luxury to get to do that. I try to, and it's not in the architectural world, it's on other parts. I try to get involved when they design prototypes so that I can help them build it so that I can hang more parts and get the cost down. Architecturally, you have to build the confidence. Everything is tied together with confidence. You've got the 2605. There's a spec for 2605 that it's a tight tolerance. We're registered with IFS. IFS feels comfortable with us through building that reputation and seeing our shop, doing the testing. They're comfortable. They feel good that it's being done correctly, just like we feel good about being that the 2605 is not gonna come off. So the customer has to feel that too. They have to build that. And as it gains momentum, it will...It definitely is going, you know, sky's the limit. So the architects have to build it to be done that way though. Winn Darden Mm-hmm. How about you, Jim? Jim Hester Oh, it's definitely changing. It will start in California. It'll start in Washington. It'll start in Oregon. It'll start in Chicago and start in New York. So that it's starting the turn to 2605 powder rather than the liquid. It's gonna happen. It's taking longer than I thought it would take, but it's definitely gonna turn. We just need one or two residential window OEMs to pop it in and then the others will follow. And then we need, we have high rises that we pinpoint out already. People love hearing about Central Park. They love hearing about 9th and Lenora. They love hearing about You know some the bird in the bird cage from the Olympics And I use all of these in my lunch and learns Presentations that it's out there powders out there And so if you have the option to use something environmentally friendly versus not environment friendly, why would you not? You know, why would you not take advantage of that today? So that's how we're out there preaching it and it'll continue rolling as these larger architects and as the Spec writers that have been in the business for 20 or 30 years retire and move on and the next generation steps in trust me They're gonna bring this to the table and it's happening before our eyes I mean, I'm sure Fiona can speak to the numbers as to you know, it'd be not it'd be fun to know You know what percentage of jump it's been in the last 10 years of just the powders. She's sold Nationwide, you know that data it's definitely growing but it's gonna happen. So Winn Darden How about you guys, Jared? Jared Ruggieri Yeah, we've seen an enormous shift towards powder and project specs over the past few years. We used to joke at Spectrum that Spectrum installed the powder line about 15 years too early. We're finally starting to catch up to liquid on monumental projects, which is, it's amazing. And we quite frankly never expected powder to be where it is today so quickly. The paint manufacturers, architects such as Rowan George, who was on previous In the Mix podcast, as well as owners, developers and top facades consultants have played a role in that shift and acceptance of powder as a viable option for their coding system. So in again, to add onto, um, add onto Jim, you know, with the US green building lead in the, in the push that it's giving, uh, powder, it's certainly giving it a big head start when talking to architects. We see a lot of the commercial architectural market moving to powder. You know, it has the same warranty, similar color options. It's a thicker, more resistant coating. And because there's no solvent in powder, it eliminates VOCs during the paint application process. Winn Darden Okay. Winn Darden Did you guys have anything else you wanted to mention or talk about? Jim Hester I would never want to end this on a negative note whatsoever, but if one of the three of us applicators, you know, do shortcut it or do make enough, not that we haven't made mistakes in our lives, we've all stumped our toe along the way, but if there was a large failure in the field for any of us, it's immeasurable what that would do to years of building this up in the eyes of spec writers and architects, you know. So we've all got to pay attention to that. And we do pay attention to that. It takes a lot of work to become a registered applicator and to be licensed by the guys or whatnot, but and to be kept up, it's totally bragging points. Kevin Maas It's one job, it's always one job away from, you know, going backwards, right? It takes you five years to get the customer and one job can ruin everything. And, you know, that's why we don't shortcut. If any of my customers, any of them, are not happy with anything I do, I will strip it and give it back to them, raw. And they can take it to the next guy. I'm okay with that, but they might've came in with a painted part, they're leaving with a raw, blasted part, ready to go And it builds on confidence that you have to leave them with a good feeling. Right. So yeah, it's pretty important. Winn Darden Well, we like that too, because as a manufacturer, we strive to make a quality product consistently all the time. Winn Darden Okay. Well, Kevin, Jim and Jared, Fiona we thank you so much for joining us on, in the mix. It's always interesting to hear from other people in the value chain and, you know, we, we deal a lot with the manufacturers, but sometimes we don't see the, the coaters from our position here. So hopefully this podcast will help not only the people in the powder coating market value chain, but our managers to be able to see what the whole process looks like and get more involved with that and understand where our products are used and how they're used and get a greater appreciation for everybody. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Kevin Maas Awesome. Well, thanks for having us. Jared Ruggieri Thank you. Thank You for listening to our podcast, In the Mix. If you enjoyed this episode and you’d like to here more, be sure to subscribe. To catch all the latest from Lumiflon, you can visit our website at Lumiflon USA .com, or follow us on Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn @LumiflonUSA. Thanks again, see you next time.