Winn Darden:
Hi there, this Winn Darden, business manager for Lumiflon Fluoropolymer Resins for North America. Welcome to our new podcast series called In the Mix, Choosing the Right Coating Solution, where we'll be discussing with industry experts what influences their decision-making processes when it comes to coatings. We'll delve into how experts develop their strategic planning approach to current structural and future market demands. In this episode, we'll talk with Bob Ruff, Technical Service Manager for All-Tech Coatings in Romeoville, Illinois. All-Tech is a coating and restoration contractor with more than 20 years of experience applying FEVE coatings. They've done work around the Americas from Brazil to the Caribbean to the US. We'll talk to Bob today on All-Tech's role in the process from coating specification to application and the unique challenges they face. Welcome, Bob. I appreciate you taking the time to speak with us.

Bob Ruff:
Well, for sure, Winn. It's a pleasure to be here and happy to talk about paint. That's what I like to do. I have to correct you first off, a technical service manager is not a term we use, but a technical director here at All-Tech. And we've been using 20 years. All-Tech has been putting on installing high-performance fluoropolymers for over 20 years. I started back in 1995 though, and been putting on FEVE ever since. So I've got a long reputation in the industry Applicating, applying coatings to various substrates from high-rise buildings, architectural finishes, window mullions, curtain wall systems, even metal roofs.

Winn Darden:
So Bob, we typically are talking to architects, specifiers, and coating manufacturers. You're the first contractor that we've talked to. So what's your role in the process? We know you apply the coatings once they've been specified and manufactured. How are you involved in the overall process of, you know, from beginning to end of that decision to use a particular type of coating.

Bob Ruff:
I'm in the decision-making process when it comes to the high-performance fluoropolymers. It's not your typical halls and walls type of paint. Paint has been applied for many, many years. It's being worked on efficiently, effectively, and they're able to get the most out of those coatings. Being the fluoropolymer, it's a little bit of a unique animal. There's long-term warranty obligations. There's the touting of long-term color and gloss retention and abrasion resistance none of that is any good if we don't have the right application. And we recognize that right away. There's a uniqueness to the product. And I have found out that the best means to consider long-term warranties to know as much as possible. And that means relationships with someone like yourself, Winn, a manufacturer of the Resins, also the relationship with the manufacturers. But I also like to get that relationship with the owner or the general contractor, they put a lot of effort into writing the specification, making sure that they're maximizing their solution. They strategize a solution that means long-term color and gloss. They're trying to make a building look like its original finish, even better than the original finish. And there's no reason it can't be done with a fluoropolymer except the application. And the application is not unsurmountable but it is unique in a way that they really have to pay attention to the specification, the process, what the uniqueness or the nuances of that product really has. And as long as they capture that right away, and that's what I do, is I try to strategize the best solution, our best means and methods. And it's a thin film coating that when I look at a job, my goal, and I also pound this into the applicator's heads as well we all need to see the end of the job as soon as possible. And that's happens when we start talking about the job, we see the blueprints, we see the specifications, we're starting to put a picture together in our head that says this is how the job's gonna look like in the end, now how are we gonna get there? And I've seen all kinds of painters try the products, I've seen some that employ individuals tank painting, I used to hire a lot from the offshore industry and real industrial type of applicators and being that it's a two component product, typically comes with an epoxy primer. It's a fantastic way to launch it. However, it's got some nuances that in the tank world, sometimes they, you know, runs, runs keep rust away. That's not the goal here with fluoropolymer when we're putting it on one and a half to two and a half mils dry.

Winn Darden:
Okay.

Bob Ruff:
It's more of an aesthetic you want to wear evenly over the next 20 years, even 30 years. And that comes from strategizing our means of methods, the right applicators, giving them the right information so they can succeed, helping them see the end of the job from the very beginning, because then all the little steps will start falling into place and we start having that conversation.

Winn Darden:
Okay. Yeah, I can imagine. There's a lot of detail in what you guys are doing with that. So you've got to fit into the schedule of the general contractor and the overall project, right?

Bob Ruff:
Absolutely. You know, typically when the work that, so we do two different types of work and one is direct to owner and most of our work has, especially recently since COVID we worked mainly with the general contractor architect following the specifications. And if I see something that's a skew that I can either, uh, maybe it's a problem, maybe it's a concern, maybe it's something to enhance what they're already bought. It's my obligation as a professional to bring that up to the general contractor. They're usually very impressed that we know so much about a coating that we've got over 30 something years experience with the finish and We strategize the best solution. So by looking at a job we can see some of the challenges right away Is the product a good niche is it right for this job comes to mind right away and We start strategizing how we put all those steps together a lot has to be done with ambient conditions or the service area that we're working in, if it's an interior atrium and you're working with other trades with odors and VOCs and it can all be done, but it needs to be strategized the right way. And often too many times we see a specification with, hey, this is a great product, let's use it. And some of that thought processes were not put into consideration. And we work hard to very, in the very beginning, as we review specs, my team, we have many project managers and estimators and They bring it to my attention whenever they see an FEVE. And we talk about the right solution because we know so much that can be a detriment when you come to pricing. Because somebody else may look at it as, oh, it's an epoxy, urethane-like coating might be a little more expensive. They don't look at it in the same way. So at that point, we do a lot to educate the person that we're bidding the work to, whether it's the owner, general contractor, or even architect. So we have an open dialogue and it really helps illustrate our abilities from the very beginning. We see a lot of things that they never saw. But more importantly, it complements what they're trying to achieve as a long-term fix and we're picking on all the little tricks of the trade to make sure we get it done properly.

Winn Darden:
Okay, yeah, that's interesting to me because I think a lot of people think that you guys come in at the end of the process and that you're gonna do surface preparation and then apply the coating. But you guys are involved with the whole process of making sure that the coating is right for the particular application they've done. Do you guys, if you get a project where they just want to look at a polyurethane, do you get in there and try to say, I think a fluoropolymer would be better for this application, here's why.

Bob Ruff:
I certainly would bring that up. I don't stick my nose into places they don't want them to be. So if the intentions of the job say it's an interior application on, on window frames, um, you know, I will stick my nose in at that point and let them know that, you know, your thing's a good product, but the UV degradation on an interior application is not that dramatic. It's not that difficult. So do we really need a fluoropolymer system in the interior application? And not to sell down on the product, but both of them are going to have a lot of fumes. Both of them, and sometimes it's the other way. If you're already putting a urethane on the inside, why not go with a product that has a long-term warranty, that has more abrasion resistance in the fluoropolymer. If the labor is going to be the same price, but the material cost is slightly elevated, but they get what they pay for. There is a long-term durability expectation that is Fantastic. Like I said, I've been using it since the 90s. And the first year or two was a little bit difficult on us because we were trying to figure it out. We were metal painters, but we eventually got to that point and it's not difficult, but like anything, we want to be the best at what we do. It takes a little bit of time and to understand some of the nuances, we, we capitalize on that, we learn from it. And next time we're going to bring everybody into the envelope. It also helps us. If we're talking about a fluoropolymer, we want everybody to know the cost factor that's involved. We want to continue beating the drum that this is a high-performance coating. It's a little bit higher. Labor is the same cost, but it's a fantastic system that's gonna give you the durability and meet those strategies that you want. If you don't want that, then we default to a good, better, best scenario where there are acrylics, there are urethanes, but there's fluoropolymers.

Winn Darden:
Okay, interesting. And your approach as opposed to other contractors, what are you guys doing that may be unique to you, that you offer the value that other contractors can't give?

Bob Ruff:
Well, I believe our experience is by far better. We have 150 applicators here at All-Tech and we continue to thrive on being the best. And by having a technical director in a painting shop, that's a huge step. And that's very much different from a lot of competition that we may see in Chicagoland and more so in rural areas. But, you know, what's different from us is we have the background using it. We've understood some of the nuances, but we're able to take all those and apply them. Myself, there's a central point and nowhere else in our industry is there one person that does only the fluoropolymer work. So that if anybody else needs a fluoropolymer job, we're bidding an exorbitant amount of projects. If it comes up, it comes to me. So what's unique is that one person handles it or one team handles it. You know, I have certain applicators that have traits of production. There's some that have traits with metallics and some others that can deal. So we're able to pick those unique people, the unique situation and put them in at the right place. You know, this is not something that you can just willy nilly put on and eight mils later, hope for the best. This is something that's gonna be looked at. And I'm proud to say, because I've been around since 95 on floor polymers alone, I've been painting since 82. But we figured out the nuances enough that we've made a heck of a career and we're able to figure more of that out.

Winn Darden:
Okay. Do you, when you use a particular company's coatings, do you guys get certified as an applicator of fluoropolymer coatings? Is that something you go through?

Bob Ruff:
We do. Yeah, there's certainly a way that manufacturers help elevate the game to help identify to any contractor, painting contractor, there's nobody that can't do this, but it helps them elevate, this requires special attention. We're given a long-term warranty, paint really doesn't fail because of the product. You know, there's been long-term historical data that says, 3 to 5% of the time, it might be bad paint. And I think that's very generous. It's usually 1% of the time. You don't get bad batches. There's a ton of QC. We need to be able to do the same thing. Now the rest of responsibility falls on scope of work and workmanship. And they're about equal, you know, 49 to 47% each. And you know, that's a big deal that we have to make sure that we're doing the right.

Winn Darden:
Right.

Winn Darden:
Okay, interesting. Give me some examples of some of the types of structures that you guys have used the fluoropolymer on.

Bob Ruff:
That's a great question, Winn. All these years, there's been a lot of cool jobs, a lot of interesting jobs. We've used it, we've put it on the Statue of Liberty new historical center where they had some anodized conditions that when they installed their window mullions that were 30 foot tall, when they installed the mullions, they endured some damage to them and they needed to be touched up in the field. And there were medium bronze, metallic, very, very hard to match. We found the fluoropolymers, the FEVEs have a great pigment to binder ratio that we don't get a lot of metallic flop. And because of that, we use a lot of the fluoropolymer metallics so that we have an easier time going from one curtain wall panel to the next curtain wall panel and making a consistent appearance rather than a checkerboard appearance because metallic flop has been very difficult. But, you know, aside from that, Boy, I wasn't ready for that question. I hate to brag on my own self, but we've.

Winn Darden:
Well, that's what this is about, Bob. We... I know you guys did a project down in Brazil because we were part of that, I think, at our parent company's glass plant down there. And I understand that was quite an adventure for the crew down there. So...

Bob Ruff:
Yeah.

Bob Ruff:
It really was, you know, one of the early on jobs that really, so one of the manufacturers we use currently bought the technology that we had used in the nineties from a different manufacturer. Come 2001, we started really playing with it a lot. And we did the Bill Clinton Library down in Little Rock, Arkansas, just a beautiful building. It was white, so it didn't require a lot of color and gloss retention concerns, but it was also a presidential library with a lot of glass curtain walls around it, surrounding it. It was cantilevered out over a river. So during new construction, the general contractor owner actually came to us based on a referral from the paint manufacturer and said, you guys use more than this than anybody else. What would you want to see on this job? And we helped strategize and we helped prepare the quotation to where they had, they ended up putting all the new steel in, but it was shop blasted, sandblasted and shop primed. And they put it in the fluoropolymer primer, the polyamide epoxy I liked, so that when I got out to the field and union job and trying to get out to the field and put the paint on, we had a good starting point. So that one worked seamlessly and I can still go back to it now and it looks like brand new. And We have a lot of that, a lot of roofs. We did a roof down in the Cayman Islands and it was a fantastic job that we used the floor polymer on and it was a job that they had a hurricane damage, it tore off some of the metal architectural panels, they put new ones up just to make it get by and not have a dry roof on top of it. But now instead of replacing all the steel, they wanted to have it painted. And we did. And, you know, the conditions down there, we wouldn't think it would be great. It's a vacation, but the conditions are unique. You know, we've, we had a lot of rain. We had almost too much sun. We've, I did a job in Hanna, Hawaii, on Maui that it was a rainforest, 240 inches of rain a year. And we were able to put this on a executive film producer's home that really wanted that long-term color and gloss retention. And we're We're happy to say that I haven't retired yet, and all these jobs are coming to age, and they look fantastic.

Winn Darden:
Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Do you, so you guys go back and look at projects and you, do you, do you guys do that or? 

Bob Ruff (21:29.418)
We do, not anything systematic because there's a person that's in charge of the team. When I get down to Raleigh, North Carolina, I'll look at the big bank building we did. I'll look at everything in that area because I do recommend the product a lot. And I want to make sure that I'm recommending the right system. And we use various manufacturers of the fluoropolymers better than the other as far as application characteristics. But what I want to make sure is do they weather the same? And the two that we use, they do. And they use the same type of resin and they weather extremely well. Part of that, it has to be applied well. I firmly believe that in the good, better, best scenario, the good, the acrylic systems show a degradation early on. And if it's not applied, say at one mil and it's applied at eight mils, on some areas and other areas that deviation will weather in an erratic pattern that shows that it was obviously painted and there's a tremendous failure. So to put this coating on and to make sure it's not only to make sure the product's working well, it's making sure that our means of methods are working well because applicators are not robots. And if they're putting, if they're applying 15,000 square feet in a day, that's an extraordinary amount. We need to make sure that they're doing it properly. So We keep a lot of checks and balances in place because of the value of it and the long-term projections of what that's going to do for our structure.

Winn Darden:
Okay. Bob, any other things that we should cover with you guys that would be of interest to the architects?

Bob Ruff:
I think it's worth touching base on the role of specs in our industry in how profound they can be. A lot of times we see boiler plates and a lot of times they're not very well thought out and, and all tech and, and your, all your premier contractors, they, they look at specifications, processes, group of architects, billion owners, they wrote these for a reason. They, they want to see the outcome. They might not have, might not know the means of methods. So we do a lot talking to them about it, we do testing, we do mock-ups. We treat the specification as a gospel, and if it's not right, there's no fudging it, we need to have that conversation. We sit down, we talk it through, and there's some architects that don't wanna hear it, but if you come across as, we want this to work for both of us, that the specification is what we wanna lean on, but we need to do it this way, and we need to add this to the specification. It goes a long way.

Winn Darden:
Yeah, I think what's been odd to me, we do a lot of lunch and learns and webinars that are aimed at architects. And I guess I've been a little bit surprised in a lot of cases, the finish is not that big a deal for them. They're more into designing the building and getting the structure right finish or the coating can almost be an afterthought. So I think the idea of working closely with them is something that I can really see as a benefit to them. And I mean, obviously you guys don't want to go in and apply something to somebody's specification that you know is going to be detrimental to the end product.

Bob Ruff:
Correct. And painting, painting as a whole in our industry with general construction, new construction is roughly three to five percent of the entire job, call it five percent of the $200 million job. It's a small percentage. So their focus is on the structural integrity of the building, you know, the major components of what goes into a building. I get that painting may be a little bit of an afterthought. It's all about time management. So when somebody does go through their specification and inquire about it. It's not a beat on somebody's chest. It's to say, I've reviewed this and I have concerns about it. They might enlighten me too. And I work with a lot of construction engineers because when it gets to a floor polymer, a lot of times that's direct to owner and they rightfully hire a third party consultant or construction engineer at that point. And they're spending money to have the right product. They spend the money for correct labor and they want a third party to analyze it because architects are not supposed to be. I don't know if I need to say that, but architects don't always know the best means of methods. And that's a broad term used to say this is how we're going to put paint down. But it's more than that. It's monitoring the ambient conditions. It's monitoring the environment that we're working in. It's monitoring the substrate. We see a lot of new substrates out there. We're always building new buildings and new structures and not only new substrates, but we have paint that was on that substrate potentially. What do we do with that paint? And architects are right in specifying it and they're right in engaging with the right contractor. It always comes down to dollars and cents when we're talking about the 3% of a total job, but It also can give that long-term. So when you start talking about that long-term projection and the accuracy of the application, architects, they like hearing that, but it takes a little bit to get through the chain of command and a general construction type job site. And I've often seen that after a few conversations with the general contractor, they put me in touch with their architect and we talk. They don't want to, they don't want to learn about paint. Bob, you tell them. And, It's an amicable conversation, but. I'm a paint nerd, if you will. And I think it's a good thing. I, you know, and architects have to deal with the concerns, the problems with paint. It's always good to talk about the enhancements. It's always good to lead with that. And this product, we can enhance its durability by no extra cost. By putting this floor polymer on. We do it. Architects need to be part of that conversation because they want it.

Winn Darden:
Yeah.

Bob Ruff:
Too many times they get the conversation of, gosh, do we really have to use this? We got a better product. And a lot of it, because the contractor may not have used it, may not want to put up with that yet for whatever reason. And it's nice to have somebody walk in the door and say, we want to enhance what's going on here. You bought a great system. Now let's make it work.

Winn Darden:
You know, you guys, we talk about surface preparation. You mentioned something about existing coatings and things like that. So a lot of times it's not just a matter of, you know, blasting to bare steel or then putting a three coat system down, sometimes there's a lot more involved with it than something like that, right?

Bob Ruff:
Absolutely. We do a lot of ACM panels. Um, with the ACM panels, there's a baked on finish, either an FEVE or PVDF. And that baked on finish, if there's a problem, there is the wrong color. We get wrong colors. We get signs that we need to put up. They might be 20 years old. They still look nice, but it might be an outdated color. So they want a FEVE on there. And we spend a lot of time considering that substrate that nothing wants to stick to. And when nothing wants to stick to, they look to us and say, you need to do an SSPC SP3. What the heck does that mean for fluoropolymer? That's for taking off an industrial epoxy and urethane and doing mechanical hand tool cleaning. We will look at that and go, what you want is an SP2. And this is why we want to break the surface. We want to sand it. We want to remove all of the contaminants.We do a lot with soluble salt removers, especially in the Gulf Coast, especially in the Chicago winter area when we're doing storefronts and entryways and so forth. But yeah, we'll do everything from sandblasting. If the coating's coming off, we'll sandblast it. But going back to ACM, if it's a color change, if it's a product that they just want something different on there and we're going to enhance that with them, we need to know that sandblast is not their correct way. Everybody likes to get to a great surface, but that is already a good surface. The metal, aluminum or steel is already protective of galvanized or aluminum. Then it already has an epoxy primer. It already has a floor polymer on there. So let's build upon that without taking it off. And that's where we get into scuff sanding, just mechanical hand tooling, you know, something along those lines. Though there are some that have to be abrasive blasted off.

Winn Darden:
Right. Well, it's interesting. I just think, as I said, I think the painting process, I think, doesn't get the credit it's due for making the building appear the way it does. The architect at design, it gets the accolades and everything. And when the paint looks good, a lot of times that's just not a major concern or it's not That's something that they look at an awful lot. And, but I know. Well, that's right. Yeah. Well, actually you kind of want them to do that. Right. Because at the end of the day, if it looks the same after 20 years, uh, that's the goal, you don't want someone looking at that and having to talk about something like, gee, this color is a little, uh, different from what we started with. Right. Yeah.

Bob Ruff:
Yeah, and then they forget about it Exactly. Because otherwise it's going to be blame on a predecessor. Oh, why didn't that guy, why did he do this? Why did he do that? There was a job, harkening back to your earlier question, NBC towers in Chicago, roughly a 50 story building. And you know, that, that job, the architect was so involved with picking the colors, picking the products and we had to audition and there was three contractors went in. We had to audition for the right process. They really got into the nitty gritty. And when I auditioned, all of a sudden it went from a, and it was an open book on what we wanted to apply. All of a sudden now it's a fluoropolymer and that's what that job went with. Uh, my company did not get that job, but I was very happy that I pushed for an FEVE and we got fluoropolymer on there. Another company put it on and everything I've told you up to this point is do it specific, make sure you, you extend the life of it. And lo and behold, 10 years later, that product still looks fantastic. You know, A new individual, a new contractor was able to figure it out. He was able to put it on well. And still into this day, here's an architect who's so involved with the process of understanding, understanding why are we going to do this? Why do we want this? And another contractor built a better mousetrap. God bless him for it. And I'm just glad that my recommendation still stays in. The contractor did a nice job and it's still, NBC Towers is a great looking job right now still and yet.

Winn Darden:
do you get architects that, uh, will they continue to specify the FEVE because of the work you've done with them?

Bob Ruff:
Yeah, the unfortunate thing is FEVE works too good. So once I paint a building, I don't get to paint it again. And, you know, tongue in cheek, but it's true. We have to keep inventing more customers. You have to continue the pipeline because what you painted is already done. So I don't know if it's being asked of architects that much that they keep it in mind. And there's always, going back to what I told you, I like having a point person, a point team in place. And I'm not sure that's always available because of rotation and changing of jobs on the architectural industry. So I don't, I did with the, Bill Clinton library down in Little Rock. We had a ton of traction. I think I did four or five jobs in, in Little Rock, Arkansas, because of that job and, and because of the architect. But, that's pretty rare. I see it more with construction engineers that are in the nitty gritty. And they've, they've seen firsthand the nuances and the uniqueness of the product. And my gosh, it works beautifully. So, you know, I get it more from construction engineers and definitely from general contractors asking me to bid work. It's funny because I'm now known as that paint guy. Don't you guys have a paint guy even at our company here? We have a very good customer call one, you know, his point person, project manager, and say, Don't you have a guy that knows about Kynar? And that's fantastic. That's what we want everybody to know. And that's where we need to continue educating for the fluoropolymer because it's not widely known.

Winn Darden:
Yeah, yeah, well, we do the best we can to get out and try to get that architectural industry to understand what the products can do. We've seen some, we've seen add on business. We've seen some architects on the powder coating side that once they've done a project, they become firm believers in the technology And there actually are some architects that will not specify liquid extrusion coatings anymore. They specify fluoropolymer now and FEVE power coatings. So I'm just curious, it sounds like there can be an effect, maybe not as big as we see in the pre-applied or the pre-coated parts.

Bob Ruff:
Where we're seeing more of it now when we're seeing it in the elevated water storage tank industry, it's, especially because of the great colors that they're putting on, it's a marketing tool or a vision tool that they use to build camaraderie within the community to see a decal, it's not the same. It fails, the vinyl will tear off and you want the, they spend so much time putting a zinc an epoxy on there, they blasted it. A lot of times they got rid of the lead on the exterior of it. And all this labor that goes into it, $800,000. If it's $820,000 because of an upcharge for a fluoropolymer and it can last 25 to 30 years, it's a solid investment for the community. The communities, we developed a tri-council development fund in Illinois that is a group of people that solicit exactly going after high-elevated water tanks. And doing it in a professional way with applicators, as well as the coatings. And those are mostly construction engineers that are going out. And again, they're doing the evaluations and making sure the film thicknesses are proper and verify an ambient condition. So those engineers have seen the uniqueness of it. They've seen that there's a purple in Lombard, Illinois, because of the Lilatia Park where they grow all these lilac trees. And it's a very difficult purple. And I've seen it now for 12 to 15 years and it's fantastic in color. It held up very, very well. So for that, that there's a whole industry that is gone to the floor of polymers. I think more, more times than not, I think some of the manufacturing facilities on exterior facades could use it more so because they're in a heavy industrial environment, but they also are so heavy industrial that they need more routine maintenance and so they will put a lesser grade product knowing that they can repaint it again.

Winn Darden:
Bob, I thank you this was really eye-opening for me, and I hope it is for some of the people listening to it. As I said, a lot of times the contractor gets overlooked in the specification process and things like that, but you guys are involved early on and throughout the whole process. And I think that's great. It ensures a great application of the product and that the finish is going to be looking good for a long time. But I appreciate you coming and I'm sure we'll see you around the industry in the next couple of years as well.

Bob Ruff:
Fantastic, Winn, it's been a pleasure to talk to you once again and wish everybody well and I'll see you out in the field.

Winn Darden:
Sounds good. Thank you, Bob.

Thank You for listening to our podcast, In the Mix. If you enjoyed this episode and you’d like to here more, be sure to subscribe. To catch all the latest from Lumiflon, you can visit our website at Lumiflon USA .com, or follow us on Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn @LumiflonUSA. Thanks again, see you next time.