Winn Darden:
I am Winn Darden, Business Manager for Lumiflon Fluoropolymer Resins for North America. Welcome to our new podcast series called In the Mix, Choosing the Right Coating Solution, where we'll be discussing with industry experts what influences their decision-making processes when it comes to coatings. We'll delve into how experts develop their strategic planning approach to current structural and future market demands. In this episode, we're gonna talk with two people from Akzo Nobel, Bob Dirks is global segment manager, architectural based in Amsterdam, while Gabriel Morales is architectural and specifications manager for North America. In this podcast, we'll talk about sustainability and what their initiatives are and how they're affecting their product marketing goals and how they're using this to develop their product marketing. 

Winn Darden:
Bob and Gabe, welcome to the podcast.

Bob Dirks:
Thank you, Winn. Great to be here.

Winn Darden:
Let me get you to talk a little bit more about who you are and what your work responsibilities are.

Bob Dirks:
Sure, I can start. So, Bob Dirks, as you said, globally responsible for the architectural powder coatings business at Akzo Nobel. What does that mean? My team is working on defining the strategy. How do we wanna approach the market? Where do we wanna play? Which is the product portfolio that we need? Which are the collections we want to bring in? Which of course is very relevant when you speak of color. We're working a lot on sustainability. How can we make a relevant impact in the world and in the market. And of course, always interacting with customers to try and hear from them what they need and then fit our strategy to that. So great to be here. 

Winn Darden:
Thank you. Gabe, how about you?

Gabriel Morales Sada:
Sure thing. So as you mentioned, I'm in charge of a group that we do specifications and we do prescriptions in North America. In this case, we create a continuing education regarding powder versus liquid. We create technology awareness and we talk about quality in technology and track records. So the whole group has been together for perhaps six to seven years. And I lead this group and I'm happy to be here and I look forward for interesting questions.

Winn Darden:
Okay, we'll begin with Bob. How does Akzo Nobel view that evolving area of sustainability?

Bob Dirks:
Yeah, you're catching me at a topic that comes very close to my heart. So at AKZO Nobel, yeah, I'm also proud to work for this company. We have been a front runner in the area of sustainability, being the first actually in our industry to commit to what we call science-based targets initiative, SBTI, and that's a global initiative to get companies across all or industries basically to commit to a pathway to keep global warming below the one and a half degrees Celsius pathway. And with that commitment, you don't just take responsibility as a company, but you take responsibility for your entire value chain. Now, maybe that sounds scary because that means that you take responsibility for things that you aren't firsthand responsible for. However, that is the only way we can all contribute to a better world. Because actually when you look at carbon emissions of many companies, the actual carbon emission often happen outside of the gates of the factory, let's say. So within the gates of the factory, you would call that scope one and scope two emissions where you have direct influence on. So this is your own manufacturing emissions and your energy consumption. However, if you look specifically in our case of powder coatings, the majority of our emissions actually happen outside the gates of our factory. Mostly in terms of raw materials, so the polyesters or in other segments, epoxies, pigments, TiO2 that we use to create powder coatings, but also at the customer site where the coatings are applied and then cured. And only when all companies take responsibility of the of that entire value chain, that's when you actually can reduce your carbon emissions as a world. And I am really super proud of Akzo Nobel that we are truly taking responsibility in that entire value chain.

Winn Darden:
Very good. Gabe, what is Akzo Nobel's short and long term approaches to sustainability?

Gabriel Morales Sada:
Sure, it's good to split it. As the short approach, it would be, of course, the easiest one or the one that we can control faster and sooner. So talking about the full cycle of our products, the lifecycle of our products, where the main areas of emission, how can we innovate them and collaborate in order to reduce the impact of it. So we are engaging with customers and suppliers in their customers and suppliers to create this network of awareness of what a powder coating is in its life cycle. And one of the tools that we've been using and we were the first ones to pretty much as a powder coating brand to use is the EPD. And if I want to go back to investigation and what EPD means, which is an environmental product declaration form, it all started when building and people living in buildings in offices or living actually having residences in towers were complaining about health problems pregnant ladies or babies were having you know sort of sicknesses so people start Engaging the industry and what products and materials were used in a construction of a building so there was a full investigation of this weird happenings in the world And it created a huge awareness by the construction companies to create this EPD transparency. So we created our powder coating brand, the first one out there. And this creates the complete explanation of how our powder behaves with the world, it reacts when it's dumped or discarded or wasted and what sort of emissions it could create or not create within time or with weather temperature changes shrinking or expanding on an aluminum siding or an aluminum panel. So all this transparency well documented has created this awareness and we're very proud to say that we were the first ones to put this out there and hold it very transparent to our customers. That is definitely on the short term. 

I would say one more part of the short term that we could control, and it's easy for us, it would be how we use energy and how we supply energy to our factories, in our offices, in our office buildings. So we have committed ourselves to using 100% renewable energy you know, to our factory. So that's an immediate quick step that we can take. And we have a challenge our company to do so in a very, very short term. 

Moving into long-term, that is when it really gets challenging as you have to deal more with definitely a time span. So we're moving into the year 2030 as our target times, and then all the way to the year 2050 to be fully carbon neutral. And we have several targets that we're looking at. This will be adjusted and adapted every year because that's a long span of time. But for now, we have engaged and challenged us, our suppliers in our supplier suppliers to look at 2030 for 50% less carbon emission in our operations across the value chain. So that's the first one. And then so that's a big, big reductions, 50% less. And then moving to 50% of our sales have to come from sustainable solutions. That's also a big ask for our supply chain and for materials department because they really need to dig in hard and try to find those sustainable suppliers and suppliers that believe like us and follow us. So that is a very key component also into 2030. And then a big ask, I would say it's a 100% circular use of materials in our own operations. So this circular use of materials is driven by the triple R, which is reduce, reuse, and recycle very, very proud of those three R's. And we believe this are gonna help us develop this culture that we need for our last challenge, which is we're gonna try to, and we're gonna do this by 2030. We're gonna move into 100,000 members of our community. We're talking architects, designers, suppliers, material, raw material companies to feel and be empowered by us. And then at the very end, with all this happening, we're gonna, you know, with this message, which we're very, very proud of here in Akzo Nobel, with this message, we're gonna empower, enlighten 100,000 members of our community to listen, be convinced that this is the way to go for the future. And this is a that we are going to be setting an example and a trend in the market for other companies to join us in this sustainable way.

Winn Darden:
Yeah, I think there's several different ways. One of course is the powder coatings don't have solvents and things like that. Plus the percentage of material that goes onto the surface of the part that you're painting is very high compared to liquid paint. But one of the things I think people tend to forget is that one of the best ways to be green is to make the product last longer. And that's what the fluoropolymer resins enable, uh, companies like Akzo Nobel to do. You have a product that's going to be in service for a very long period of time. So you're not, uh, you're not manufacturing product and all of the emissions and the, uh, the, uh, environmental issues that come up about with, uh, with, with making a coding, uh, delivering the coding, all of that stuff does not happen nearly as often with the fluoropolymers as it does with other types of materials.

Winn Darden:
Bob, what are Akzo Nobel's key areas of focus within this sustainability move?

Bob Dirks:
Yeah, I think you're hitting the nail on its head. So when you look at architectural powder coatings, in my opinion, there's two key, key drivers, let's say to move to more sustainable solutions. So the first thing is indeed, as you already just mentioned, to increase the durability of a product, I always say, the most sustainable thing to do is to keep using it right. And whether that is for a sweater, you already have, I companies are promoting we have you know recycled raw materials or ecological raw materials but actually if you just keep wearing the sweater you already had that's still better than buying that sweater made out of recycled raw materials so the same holds of course for powder coated objects the less damage or scratches the less maintenance the longer the color and the gloss retention the longer the building looks nice you just need to clean it you need to maintain it and then it will last for a very, very long time. And especially, of course, when you're looking at those fluoropolymer products that we are working on together with Winn. Secondly, also, we need to look at reducing the energy consumption. Because if you look at critically at powder coatings, one of the things where is a less sustainable footprint is in the curing of powder. That's after application. And of course, we are always looking to develop together with our suppliers, can we develop lower curing powder coatings so that our customers can reduce their energy emissions, they can use their energy consumption, and that of course also helps to reduce the cost, which I guess everybody is always interested in. Those two big elements, so increasing the durability and reducing the energy consumption, of course, are the big two shots. And that goes on top of the other benefits of powder coatings, which is less waste, no VOCs, I think already it's been mentioned a couple of times by Winn as well.

Winn Darden:
Yes, that's interesting. That reducing energy consumption is also important to us. The other thing that we think this can do is to get powder coatings into other market areas. For example, coatings on fiberglass windows rather than aluminum. There are some advantages that materials like fiberglass have. And if we can take advantage of that and get powder coatings into that market, almost every market segment that we're in is interested in moving from liquid to powder coatings if they can. So I think that's another reason to try to get the temperature processes down as well. Bob, do you guys have a regional plan or is your plan global in focus?

Bob Dirks:
Yeah, so the overall targets as Gabe has outlined before us, so on the less carbon emissions in the value chain, educating people in our community, that comes from a Akzo Nobel company perspective. So that's really a global company-wide perspective. But then of course it comes down to the segments and to the business units to translate that as to how you can, yeah make that happen in the world to move 50% revenue from sustainable solutions that won't happen in itself. You need teams to work on that, do product development, etc. And that is something that we do at a regional level. We have to look at innovation, which is the new product development we do, but also legislation, which are the raw materials we can use, we cannot use. How do we educate our people, our customers, our internal employees? So yeah, it starts at a global level, but you translate it down and being responsible globally. I always say I use global when beneficial and possible and regional or even local when required. And that can tie into local application or local regulation, sorry, or local trends. And yeah, so we move from global down to regional or local level.

Gabriel Morales Sada:
Hey, Bob, tying into that one, it's always exciting to move one of our customers or one customer out there that is using liquid, that has been using liquid for years and years and years and move them completely to powder. A huge challenge, raising time, investment, education. So we're proud to mention that we have done this, you know, quite a quite a few times in the architectural world, and we have succeeded. And you know how we create those, when we know we succeeded, is when our customers that they used to buy, for example, I don't know, half a million dollars worth of liquid coatings. Now they're buying three or $4 million worth of coatings in powder coatings. So very, very proud to say that is, you know, a very, very tangible way of seeing success and seeing that everything we're talking here in commenting, you know, it's put to action.

Winn Darden:
Good. Do you guys have anything else you'd like to share?

Bob Dirks:
Yeah, I think anyone interested in sustainability, which I'm sure you have if you just listen to this podcast, we actually recently published a Q&A, let's say, about the updated EPD that Gabe was talking about earlier. And that can give some answers to maybe the more questions that you have around our EPD. So definitely check that out. If you can find it on our website, feel free to connect through LinkedIn, I think with Gabe or myself.And yeah, reach out if we can answer any questions, questions on that. Yeah, I think it's an exciting topic, sustainability. I think, again, it's something we need to work together throughout our entire value chain. So we work together with Lumiflon, with Winn on that. We work together with all of our other suppliers and also with all of our customers. So, yeah, reach out, talk to us, talk to each other and let's try to bring this topic of sustainability to the next level across the entire value chain. Thank you, Winn, for this discussion and conversation.

Winn Darden:
Well, thank you, Bob and Gabe. We really appreciate your time and really enjoyed what you've had to say about sustainability. We think powder coatings are going to move into a much larger market space in the future. And one of the driving reasons for that is sustainable. It's going to be sustainability. So thank you for joining us for the podcast and we'll see you next time.

Bob Dirks:
Thank you.

Gabriel Morales Sada:
Thank you all, wish you well. Thank you, thank everybody.

Thank You for listening to our podcast, In the Mix. If you enjoyed this episode and you’d like to here more, be sure to subscribe. To catch all the latest from Lumiflon, you can visit our website at Lumiflon USA .com, or follow us on Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn @LumiflonUSA. Thanks again, see you next time.