Winn Darden: Hi there, this Winn Darden, business manager for Lumiflon Fluoropolymer Resins for North America. Welcome to our new podcast series called In the Mix, Choosing the Right Coating Solution, where we'll be discussing with industry experts what influences their decision-making processes when it comes to coatings. We'll delve into how experts develop their strategic planning approach to current structural and future market demands. In this episode, we're gonna talk with two people from Akzo Nobel, Bob Dirks is global segment manager, architectural based in Amsterdam, while Gabriel Morales is architectural and specifications manager for North America. We will discuss color trends for powder coatings and how they influence product development and market development for Akzo Nobel's Powder Group. Winn Darden: Bob and Gabe, welcome to the podcast. Bob Dirks: Thank you, Winn. Great to be here. Winn Darden: Let me get you to talk a little bit more about who you are and what your work responsibilities are. Bob Dirks: Sure, I can start. So, Bob Dirks, as you said, globally responsible for the architectural powder coatings business at Akzo Nobel. What does that mean? My team is working on defining the strategy. How do we wanna approach the market? Where do we wanna play? Which is the product portfolio that we need? Which are the collections we want to bring in? Which of course is very relevant when you speak of color. We're working a lot on sustainability. How can we make a relevant impact in the world and in the market. And of course, always interacting with customers to try and hear from them what they need and then fit our strategy to that. So great to be here. Thanks, Winn, and looking forward to talk to you about color. Winn Darden: Thank you. Gabe, how about you? Gabriel Morales Sada Sure thing. So as you mentioned, I'm in charge of a group that we do specifications and we do prescriptions in North America. In this case, we create a continuing education regarding powder versus liquid. We create technology awareness and we talk about quality in technology and track records. So the whole group has been together for perhaps six to seven years. And I lead this group and I'm happy to be here and I look forward for interesting questions. Winn Darden: Well, thank you guys. I appreciate it. So let's jump right in. Gabe, how do you define and how does the market define future color trends with, I guess, with all coatings? Gabriel Morales Sada That's a good one. That's always the fun part of our job, which is color, color and design of color. Typically, color is defined by everything that happens around us in the world on a daily basis. And typically, what happens in the world, external factors, macroeconomic trends perhaps like a huge pandemic, like the one we just came out of, can create changes in the way we see color, we prefer color, and we do color. So typically, the feeling of looking at color and understanding color and wanting a different hue of color is definitely influenced by our surroundings. In color trends, we particularly, we always think about, House color, you know, my walls inside my house, my accent walls, because I can flip them. I can change them easy. I can go to my local store, buy a couple gallons of paint, and change my mood or my color mood. In architectural coatings per se, powder coatings, you know, we typically don't have that ability because we were painting either OEM windows and doors or curtain wall and facades that are pretty much there to stay. And to change a color on something like that on aluminum or steel would be sort of hard. So pretty much, you know, we have to be designing and creating color trends that we're gonna be very happy with. Winn Darden: Okay. Bob, how does Akzo Nobel approach the color trends in the market? Bob Dirks: Yeah, so we have a team, we call them the Global Aesthetic Center, and they have been leading Akzo's color trend analysis. This goes across the entire company. So it goes from our decorative paints to our car refinishes, yacht coatings, architectural coatings, industrial coatings, so furniture, lighting, what have you. So they look all around the world with a group of independent international experts. So we invite paint expert designers, architect, trend watchers, also fashion designers, and we take all of these items into account. Looking at the trend research, let's say, and that then builds a comprehensive understanding of the world around us as Gabe was just describing, and then translate those trends and what's happening in the world into colors that consumers would like to buy. And again, whether that's for painting a wall or for something that's longer lasting, the trends overall evolve. And you can actually see when you look at the trends analysis over the past Winn Darden: Okay, I've always wondered about the color of the year. Does that process then result in picking the color of the year then? Bob Dirks: Yeah, exactly. So that analysis results in the annual color of the year. And then that we translate specifically for a specific industry. So I'm in the lead to translate that for the architectural color palette. Winn Darden: Okay. Winn Darden: Okay, very interesting. I think you can see that, how that changes over time in the automotive industry. It looks like a lot of the cars that you're seeing out there have different finishes than they had, say three or four years ago. They don't look quite as metallic, I guess, as previously. Bob Dirks: Yeah, yeah, definitely. You can see that in the automotive industry and also on the buildings around us, right? You can see it across all segments. Yeah. Winn Darden: In buildings around it, yeah. Okay. Very, very interesting. Yeah, for most people I think that probably impacts the paint for their homes. But then of course with you guys it's going to affect the curtain wall and windows and things like that. Very interesting. Gabe, how does your corporate or your company analysis affect the finishes that are chosen for different projects in the world. Gabriel Morales Sada: Sure. So, I guess going back to my previous answer, it kind of ties along. Consumer paints are easily changed, as we kind of mentioned. And then when we're talking about a building or a window or a door, it's more static. So, we definitely do not move as fast as house paint, but we do get very involved in color research and color trends by a group of experts worldwide, specifically color trend researchers, architects, designers, that every year give us feedback on how the world is moving and what is the world asking for in many markets. And of course, we narrow it down to the typical architectural market that we're leading here with this industry. I can add, for example, when we create color, we do, for example, solid colors, opaque colors. But then we also work a lot with metallic effects and funky looking materials that perhaps have a metallic and then also texture. And then when the sun hits it during the day on a building,there's a beautiful change in color and it kind of creates a living work of art because the sun hitting it in the morning creates this effect for the people that are looking at the building and in the afternoon with the evening skies, you know, it creates a different effect. So all in all, it creates a beautiful symbolic look for a skyline monument, a symbolic piece of building in a city. Winn Darden: Okay, yeah, very interesting. Does the architect on a particular project, do they choose the finishes or how much do you guys influence that process? Gabriel Morales Sada: If you're asking me, I would say it's a common, it's definitely a common denominator for both us and the architects and designers. And we together create a color that is responsible, that is structurally sound and technically efficient for weathering and for gloss. So there is a valid study in ingenuity of looking at track records,time in the market, existing powder coatings that have been in our skylines in the world for 20, 25 years. And then there, it comes the negotiation, for example, on requests that are a little bit off track, like in tropical or exotic colors. And then we, as a group, tone them down so that we can make a good decision for the right pigmentation, the right color, to really be create something that doesn't need to be repainted. Winn Darden: So it's your knowledge of the technology combined with these, the capabilities of the technology, I guess, combined with the trends that will influence what you guys offer to the architect for your colors. Gabriel Morales Sada: Yeah, and we have been successful enough to create this group of around 60, 70 people worldwide that are specification team members that are all over the world and talking to architects and designers, understanding the value of color, the value of gloss, the value of track records with powder coatings. It has created a very confident, you know, move into the world of powder coatings from liquid coatings. Winn Darden: Bob, how long has your company been predicting these color trends? Have you guys feel like you've been successful or are you still finding new ways to do it? Bob Dirks: No, I think so. I think, well, both goes, right? So I think, yes, we have been successful. Actually, last year, we celebrated 20 years of color trend research, color features, as we call it internally. But of course, you also need to continuously reinvent yourself, right? So I think we're doing both. And actually, having that 20 years of experience is also how we're doing helping you to show how the trends are evolving. And it's too bad that this isn't a webinar actually, because I am looking in front of me at how the trends have been evolving. And you see, let's say between 2004 and 2014, there's much more color and much less gray and white sort of shades, whereas now in the past, yeah, 10 years or so, more grayed out shades of greens or browns, etc. are evolving more. If I look at the architectural market specifically, and this is interesting, as Gabe is also saying, we do have a global network. So we also have a global idea of what we are selling, right, and what we are specifying to architects. So we see that metallic effects have been increasing in popularity around the world, literally everywhere but also the gloss levels have been decreasing. And I think, Winn, that's also something that you have noticed maybe in the car industry, where actually you see more matte finishes, right? In the industry. So, and that's almost becoming a new normal. I think in general now it's being asked for a matte finish, whereas probably 20 years ago, it was more the standard was a satin or a gloss finish. Winn Darden: Yes, yeah, that's right. Yep. Winn Darden: Gabe, how are these trend predictions, uh, received by the stakeholders in the, uh, architectural value chain? Gabriel Morales Sada: Sure, so I think first let's define what a stakeholder is. A stakeholder would be a consultant, construction company, an owner of a building, a designer, an architect, and actually also an OEM of a window and door company. And also the owner of a brand, a brand that is well known and it has stores all over the world, for example. We create color exclusively for companies that have stores in like clothing stores, in fashion stores, in jewelry stores all over the world. So first, those would be our stakeholders. And how do they receive this color trend and color suggested looks that we create? They receive them well. They know that we are a company that has dedicated time and energy and qualified decision makers and color trend researchers that they absolutely, I don't say they will fall in love with the color selected, but definitely with the palette selected. So we based most of our color of the year or or color trend designs and color collections on palettes that are definitely agreeable with the world right now and the world to come. Winn Darden: Okay. Bob, what's the effect of these color trends and the prediction of the color trends? What are the influences those have on the growth of the powder coating market segment? Bob Dirks: Yeah, of course there's an effect because especially in this architectural market we sell color. Gabe has already made that clear. So staying on top of color of the trend research is very important and especially I would say those finishes that we cannot achieve in a liquid paint that can help to grow with the powder coating technology specifically which both Gabe and I are focusing on. I think one nice example which we also launched in the US earlier this year is our effect range. It's a range of powder coatings that can mimic natural stone and we can do it in an AMA 2603 or sorry 04 or 05 and they mimic natural stone so concrete limestone sandstone brick sort of finishes so they also feel like stone and that's something that helps us grow our business for sure. Winn Darden: very interesting. And there's things you can do in powder coatings that you can't do in the liquid coating side. Bob Dirks: Yeah, so that stone effect is definitely an example of that, I would say, because it feels almost like sending paper. It really has this rough, rough texture. And also you have different speckles in it. So actually what a stone effect comprises of it, you have a base, a base color, let's say a base white, and then there's also black, gray or brown speckles in it, which mimic that stone effect. Winn Darden: Okay. Bob Dirks: which in Liquid Paint clearly you cannot achieve the same finish. Gabriel Morales Sada: Adding to that, when, and Bob, of course, the one pass system, correct, in liquid coatings, you do a one base and then you create the texture with a second layer. In powder coatings, you can do one shot systems and create these beautiful textures. In some of them, these textures are meant to, as Bob was saying, meant to look like real natural pieces. So it works out real well, and architects and designers are are definitely very excited with what we've been able to do in middle end codings, AMA2604, Qualicode2, and also in Qualicode3 and AMA2605 kind of codings. So hey, the sky's the limit. Designing is our forte, and that's what we like to do. Winn Darden: Okay. Now I know that you guys with the powder coatings, you compete with the liquid PVDF. How important is color, your ability to develop color in that competition to help the architect, to guide the architect to using powder coatings versus liquid coatings? Gabriel Morales Sada: Sure, sure. So architects and designers always ask us, are you gonna look like liquid? Are you going to be similar to liquid? Are you gonna have a glass of liquid? Can you give me the depth of image of liquid? So everything's related to liquid around here in North America, because liquid has been here for so, so long when I would say 70 years, 80 years, liquid and then of course anodized finishes.So here we are, 2001, 2002, trying to move the needle towards powder coatings. And we've been doing this now for 25 years. And I've been part of it and Bob has been part of it. And it's definitely a challenge to educate architects and designers and let them know that powder is here to stay, that the track records exist. So all in all, at the very end, they find themselves You know, an interesting prerogative. Am I gonna go powder sustainable green in what the world is doing? Or am I gonna stick, you know, to my typical line of attack, which is liquid PVDF or polyester coatings? Where do I wanna go? So it creates battles and it creates challenges and it creates great discussions. So part of our job in our specification team is getting into these conversations, nailing all this top 500 firms in America and talking to them in a very, very assertive way that creates a discussion that's worth a revolution in their curiosities. And then at the end, our accomplishment will be on the specification or prescription, create the specification that says, yes, you can use powder. Yes, you can use liquid. Please select, please choose and give it to the market. Give it to the market to decide even when I use powder or liquid, as both can create technology and quality. Winn Darden: Okay. Um, Gabe, what are the main colors, uh, that you guys use and, um, the color collection, uh, types that AKZO Nobel has for the market? Gabriel Morales Sada: So we tried to base our color and color collections through a very defined grouping called Futura. And Futura has been with us almost 20 years now. And every four years, we update it. And we create this color changes, adjustments with the world and how the world behaves at the moment of launching. So we recently launched the 50 plus colors in our Futura collection for the next four years. Excited to let you know that the whole world has this Futura collection to their advantage. So we can offer this set of colors all over the world at every continent. And from there, we spin off also others like Stone Effect, like Anotic Lines. Anotic is an interesting line. It's a metallic effect that looks like anodized surface finishes, not precise coatings, they're really surface finishes, this anodized looks. They're having in our market for a long time and then they don't particularly, they're not particularly sustainable. So a lot of people are moving from that anodized look that was very prevalent in the 50s and 60s and 70s to the same finish, the same look, but with powder coating. So that has been a success and we just launched that collection. And the beauty also is that we can offer it in middle-of-the-road qualities like AMMA 2604, and of course with Phoebe or Phoebe-based materials, Lumiflum quality resin, encrusted in our recipe to create the best coating technology in the world. Winn Darden: Okay, and anodizing is not a particularly environmentally friendly method of putting a finish onto a component, right, metal component. Gabriel Morales Sada: Right, so anodize, you know, it's efficient economically. It's just that, yeah, it uses a lot of water, a lot of energy. And today in the way the world expects us to use energy and moving into other subjects that we were gonna talk in another podcast, you know, I can definitely define anodize as not per se sustainable way of creating color on buildings. Winn Darden: Okay, and that's one reason people are moving to powder, from liquid to powder, is because of the environmental friendliness of powder coatings. Gabriel Morales Sada: That is one of the reasons, yes, there's a group of reasons, but that is one of the biggest key aspects that specifically the top architectural firms are looking at in putting themselves on goals for sustainability and their buildings to achieve lead levels that we're on here for before. Winn Darden: Okay. And just a last question. We've talked about color. Of course, color in paints and coatings comes from pigments. How important is pigment choice in your Superdurable and your Futura collection? Bob Dirks: It's very important because pigments, of course, in our products and in our finishes for architectural space, when they're applied by an approved applicator, we also give warranties. So we want to make sure that the finishes last and that goes twofold. You want to make sure that the film actually is solid. It sticks to the substrate. It sticks to the window or the facade. It doesn't peel off. At the same time, you want to make sure that the color and the gloss retention are high. You don't want a red building to look pink two years after you put it in place or a black building to turn gray. So for each of our quality ranges we are making sure that we are working with the appropriate pigments to make sure that those finishes last as long as we promise that they will last. Winn Darden: right. Winn Darden: Okay, good. Did you guys have anything else that you had another question that might lead you into something that we didn't have an opportunity to talk about? Gabriel Morales Sada: We would like to thank everybody that is listening to us. Bob and I are excited to talk about this. And we believe colors and trends of color are going to be part of our Modus Vivendi even more in the years to come. Expect a lot of collections coming out of this company, Axon Nobel, because this is how we believe color and custom colors. We should have an array of color collections for everybody to choose and try to, before they start thinking on color, they can look at color and just select from there. So that's kind of like what I believe it's where we're moving in. Winn Darden: Okay. Bob and Gabe, thank you very much for joining us for this discussion of color in the powder coating market. And we appreciate you being there and wish you a lot of success in the sales of the product line. Bob Dirks: Thanks, Winn. Gabriel Morales Sada: Thank you, Winn. Wish you well. Thank You for listening to our podcast, In the Mix. If you enjoyed this episode and you’d like to here more, be sure to subscribe. To catch all the latest from Lumiflon, you can visit our website at Lumiflon USA .com, or follow us on Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn @LumiflonUSA. Thanks again, see you next time.